^^^I thought the Flight allowed for a jacket to pant/bib interface? One might need to purchase the “gasket” they mention, but it seems as though it is possible depending on the specific (Marmot) jacket.

Guess I underestimate the efficiency of the elastic crotch strap on my Stretch Element jacket to keep it in place. That is by no means an admission of Tomahawkn… 😉

@jimw wrote:

Didn’t know about Promotive, looks like a great benefit (but like I need another SAC/The Clymb-type site to drain money into! :)).

If you know someone who’s active military, their group on Promotive has access to 250+ brands. Our bank accounts have never been the same since.

^^^Not 100% sure how the jacket to pant/bib connection is made. Nothing on the Marmot website detailing the interface.

Just picked up a Patagonia Powslayer jacket at a crazy deal at the local outlet store. They are currently blowing these out online too, see:
http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-powslayer-jacket-with-gore-tex?p=30300-1-065

They only have small sizes left, but I actually got a small and it seems to fit fine. Normally wear a medium, but these seem to run a little big. Looking forward to trying this one out. It’s longer than my previous Patagonia jacket so better coverage, and has a nice minimal pow skirt (not intrusive but should get the job done), with a loop to attach to your pants for more security if your pants have a loop below the belt in the back. Super light and seems like it should breathe really well.

Arc’teryx. Don’t waste your time with imitators.

If you want something that actually breathes then go with Gore Active shell. I work at a gear store and own some high-end stuff, including the Hover 3L, Neoshell jackets, etc. etc. and the only waterproof/”breathable” that actually breathes and is windproof is gore active shell.

I was sold on Neoshell until I was exposed to single digit temps and 35 mph gusts – I had never been that cold before. Gore pro is good but generally very heavy due to the mfg’s choice of face fabric and backer and not very breathable despite all of the claims to the contrary. Gore active is multiple orders of magnitude more breathable than pro shell and actually windproof (unlike neoshell) but the rub (theres always a trade-off) is that Gore active is slightly less burly than gore pro but much more versatile.

The older I get and the more I tour the less I give a shit about steez, find a gore active jacket that fit’s well and has just about every feature you want and you won’t look back – you’ll have a legit 4 season shell. (Gore pro shell jackets aren’t good for wearing during the summer unless you live on the north or south pole- wear that pro shell jacket during a 75 degree summer rainstorm and you’ll be about as comfortable as Paula Deen in a spin class).

My system – for the resort I have an AK 3l hover, I love it but I bought it when my shredding was centered around resort riding and weight/packability were of no concern. For the backcountry I have a TNF Alpine project shell, it provides the same protection and weighs less than 1/2 as much as the Hover 3l and takes up about 1/2 the space in my pack.

Don’t overlook TNF, IMO their products have actually gotten better over the past few years and they stand behind them 110%. You can also find their stuff on sale a lot because so many retailers carry it. Try everything on before you commit, the last few years nearly every manufacturer has changed their sizing and in general outerwear has gotten roomier.

After a lot of use with active shell I would opt for pro shell only for winter use. The active shell is awesome as a “just in case” alpine climbing shell or 3 season rain shell but it isn’t nearly as durable or waterproof as pro shell.

I knew about the lack of active shell durability because of the lower denier shell fabric but the degrading of the waterproofing is embarrassing. I’ve heard the same things from people who have ‘Arc pieces with active shell, it just wet’s out super quick compared to pro shell, especially in high wear areas where your pack straps and a harness go. I’ve retreaded it with tech wash, spray on, etc and the performance just isn’t here compared to my 3l hover jacket which probably has close to 250 days of resort and bc riding. If I’m not too worried about freezing to death or being stranded in the alpine in winter then active shell is fine but for any application where the piece has to absolutely perform I would opt for Pro Shell.

The only other membrane I can comment on with any experience is Neoshell and IMHO it’s d*gshit. It breathes so well that you’ll literally feel the breeze and the claim for 10,000mm waterproofing might be for the first and second use, after that it’s basically a soft-shell that takes a bit longer to wet-out.

Soft shell, soft shell, soft shell.

I’ve never understood why people wear hard shells in the winter. Especially in the Rockies. I’ve been using soft shell exclusively for 10 years of backcountry snowboarding 100+ days a year and I can literally only remember 2x where the snow was just wet enough and warm enough to make the jacket feel wet inside. It’s perfectly dry in a heavy snowstorm. Much.drier than a hard shell actually. The most important thing about soft shell is not just its ability to breath, but it’s ability to quickly dry out with your body heat. Hard shells don’t breathe well …doesn’t matter what fabric you have…gore, xcr, pro shell, event, paclite. I’ve owned or own many jackets and drytops made of all the aforementioned fabrics plus a few more, none breath anything like a soft shell.Myself and a few other buddies have switched to full soft shell suit with much better results than a hard shell. What We all figured out was that if you wear a hard shell you are constantly soaked and feeling clammy. It’s not the precip, it’s perspiration. The membrane doesn’t move it fast enough and when you stop evaporative cooling sets in and robs your body heat. I find that the soft shell easily moves the perspiration and heat and dries it out quickly, keeping me dry inside so that I maintain a more level body temp.i have no shortage of hard shells to choose from, but in The last decade I can only remember wearing them a handful of times, and never being psyched on performance if I did. If you ask me, a hard shell is only good for one condition….rain. And even then, it ain’t gonna work that well. You’ll be wet and clammy inside, but you’ll be “dry”…sort of.

I like the soft shell because it breathes well enough that unless it’s a hot sunny high pressure day I can keep the shell on all day without overheating or feeling damp and clammy. This offers better protection against spindrift and the occasional cold hard breeze on a ridge line that wants to make you feel cold. Soft shell pants also help me regulate temp and dry quickly. Switched the pants about 5 years back, and literally haven’t worn a hard shell pant since. the breathability and the ability to stay dry, and dry out if it does get wet trump everything else. Also helps regulate my body heat. I pass people on the glory boot pack daily wearing hard shell gear looking like they just got out of a 1 hr sauna session. Hard to move fast when you are overheating.

As to layering, I keep it simple. I either wear mid weight or exp capilene underneath, depending on the temp expected..and that’s it. Whichever one I’m not wearing goes in my pack,in the heart of winter I always keep an extra exp weight and synthetic micro puffy for stopping or in case I get cold. At the top of the climb I will swap out my base layer for something warmer and drier. It’s amazing the difference this makes. I always feel dry and cozy on the way down with a fresh base layer. I use a buff either as neck warmer with a hat if it’s cold, buff as a headband for medium temps, nothing if its warm. I find your head and your neck are pretty key areas to control body temp.

As to brands I’ve always liked Patagonia. Just fits me well. Had a few sets of guide pants, currently using a set of alpine guide pants. For jackets I’ve had a few white smokes, a light smoke, and am now using a simple guide hoody. I personally like as light a fabric as I can get…non insulated. I do have an insulated stio soft shell. It’s wind stopper with the fleece backing. It’s a good jacket but a bit heavy some days so I generally layer light under it. I do really like the wind stopper fabric tho, and think a straight uninsulated wind stopper would be where it’s at.

So wait, I’m not allowed to like a jacket that I own and have found works well for several years now because it’s wind stopper which you and several other deskchair mountaineers have deduced (mabye without use) to be inferior…

Fwiw the wind stopper seems to breath a billion times better than any of the high denier nylon gore tex hard shells I have owned and used extensively . It does not breath as well as a light weight fully stretch woven fabric, but that is not a surprise . Bottom line is There is more to a fabrics ability to breath than just the presence of a membrane, and the ws fabric doesn’t appear to be just untapped goretex. The shell material appears to be a stretch woven similar to schoeller. It breathes well for my use when I need higher protection from the elements, and I bring this shell out on days we have cold or a lot of wind. Again, my beef with my particulaur jacket has more to do with the insulated fleece backing. It’s warm inside, so I layer light and only use it when conditions call.

What I was trying to say above is a uninsulated windstopper jacket would be nice for those days where there is plenty of wind and snow and u just need a little extra weather protection. As I generally just use very light stretch woven clothing touring, it’s easy to get cold or feel the wind bite thru on cold windy days in the heart of winter, sometimes I need a little something extra, and wind stopper works well in this application. Its is on the heavier end of the soft shell fabrics but it is not a hard shell, and is marketed by gore as a soft shell fabric. Just cause I want better weather protection on select storm days does not mean I want a hard shell. I def do not want a hard shell.

The other thing to note is soft shell is cheap. I bought bough my alpine guide pants and my simple guide hoody as previous seasons at 30% off. I’m in about $220 on my entire suit. For that low amount, I can afford to have another jacket. Heck, I bet my full Patagonia guide suit and winds topper jacket still cost less than one good goretex hard shell jacket.