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 Post subject: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Whistler, Coast Mtns
My first time with AT boots(TLT5's).

I've been out 5 or 6 times since I got them a couple weeks ago with the voile slider/plate that James gave me.

Horrible response from the binding in comparison to Spark/soft boot set up I had. Too much flex in the puck/plate/board interface and the bails/voile plate interface.

Another friend went in to his attic and dug me out an old pair of Carbon Race Rossignol bindings 2 days ago.

[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/6876949470/]Image[/url]
sg1 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]


I mounted them yesterday and took them out on one of my custom SBX boards to try out the plates with the boots. Slightly beefier bails, and toe bails that stick out less.

[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/6876964782/]Image[/url]
[/url] by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]

Worked great in the morning. Stoked. So light compared to the old C60/soft boot set up.
Took them apart in the afternoon and went to the local shop and started drilling my Spark plates.


Front binding
[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/6876964800/]Image[/url]
blaze1 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]

Front binding, 2' cant under the plate.
Earlier today I also had a 2.5' cant under the Voile pucks but found in to be too much

[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/6876964806/]Image[/url]
blaze2 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]


Back binding
[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/6876964812/]Image[/url]
blaze3 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]


Back binding
2.5' cant underneath the voile pucks, 3-4mm riser on heel, 2' cant underneath the plates

[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/7023071485/]Image[/url]
blaze4 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]


Drilled binding, dremeled hardware

[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/7023071489/]Image[/url]
blaze5 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]

Can't fit Dynafit's on with the adapter plate and the Spark baseplate, about to direct mount them a bit further back
[url][url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61821887@N03/7023071491/]Image[/url]
blaze6 by jmemay, on Flickr[/url]


Went out and did a few runs today to test the set up.

Infinitely better than the Voile Plate/bindings.
Like I thought. The Voile slider plate is too rounded from the outside of where it attaches to the pucks. When the board flexes the plate is nowhere near to touching the board thus only 'pulling' on the pucks.
In the same area the Spark baseplate goes flat across(9mm then to 12mm at the widest point mid binding).
Then add to the fact that the plate is wider still when the board flexes response is still better.
This is without cants under the pucks.

Once cants go under the pucks I could there may be a slight advantage for the Voile plate.
I had cants under the pucks earlier today with the Spark set up, great response.

It's not crazy light(540g front, 650g back) but it is responsive. I may just use puck canting since it is lighter than the binding cants.

This is a solution I'll be happy with until summer.


How easy would it be for Will to use the mould he already has, trim down the sides and put a hole pattern in the plate.

I may wait for Rughty's bindings, but I'm thinking it could be fun to go see a neighbour who CNCs custom bike parts here in Whistler....http://northshorebillet.com/about/.

Then its time to talk to Chris and my german engineer who build Prior boards and talk carbon fibre

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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:24 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
That's some nice work.

But what happened to the holes in the 2nd pic from the bottom?

First a miss drill?


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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:41 am
Posts: 301
Location: Altadena SoCal
Nice work. Love the pics. I've been thinking of a binding like this for a while.

How do you keep the LT pin from sliding out? Is that a zip tie I see connecting the pin to the toe bail? You rotate the bail backward. Slip the tie around the pin and rotate the bail forward. As long as the bail is forward, the loop of the tie is not long enough to unslip around the pin?
Maybe you could hitch the pin leash to the far side of the bail. When you step in the binding you route the leash under your foot; hopefully taking up enough slack to not allow the pin to fall out.

If you are still looking to shave weight (and you're really brave), there's a whole lot of unused material you could cut off around the sides and rear of the binding.


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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:15 pm
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Location: Tahoma, Ca
ive thought about this many a time too... it seems like spark could sell bolt on bails that connect to the screws where the toe strap and heel cup are bolted in, then people could use their same binding for hard or soft boots with little extra cost.

good work i may have to try this out as i set up a hard boot ride and was very unpleased with the amount of medial/lateral flex from in between the binding, pucks and board.

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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Whistler, Coast Mtns
Exactly right Hans.
One zip tie takes care of the LT pin.

Not too concerned about taking more material off right now. I want to be able to put these back together as softboot bindings after I get a new binding this summer.

Chewbacca....yeah finding the right width for the bails was a bitch. Mangled the holes on both bindings. Holding up well so far.

and Chris, I don't know how people have coped with the Voile plate w hardboots for so long. You'll be so stoked with the response in comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1522
Location: Colorado
Nice work Jamie. Please be sure to send a picture to Will at Spark.
I am curious though, are you really that concerned about lateral and medial (fore and aft) flex in your boot/binding/board interface? Most users of hard boots feel that additional lateral and medial flex is actually a good thing, and that is the reason we have articulated bindings such as the Bomber Sidewinder.
I have never used the Voile plate setup, but I have flexed it, and do agree it is alarmingly flexy in all dimensions. I personally feel that it is response across the board (toe to heel) that matters, and improving stiffness in this dimension is important to me-the Voile pucks are alarmingly flexible in this dimension: Once I have the stance completely dialed on a board, I place a ski screw through the Voile pucks and into the board at the outer edge of the pucks; this stiffens the puck to board connection (from edge to edge) and also keeps the dreaded puck shift from ever happening, perhaps something for you to try as well.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Whistler, Coast Mtns
My main concern when I set up Voile system was how flimsy it felt.

The pucks may flex a bit but it was little in comparison to the slider plate.
The Spark baseplate doesn't just sit on top of the pucks and wrap around the edges of them. It has that extra bit of width(9-12mm) on either side of the pucks. The board flexes and it contacts the plate, so its not the force being translated directly through the pucks that initiates a turn, but also the plate itself which directly translates force to the board.
I believe toe to heel response is what matters coming from your boot, but the board under your boot and binding is constantly flexing on either side of the pucks. I think having this extra contact area of the Spark plate provides a more direct translation of force as this flexing happens, thus giving a more immediate response. The pucks seem to be more there to hold the binding there rather than having to provide the force to turn the board.

The slider plate brought me back to the first few times on a splitboard. Delayed response, unable to to confidently turn the board.
The Mtn Plates were just plain scary. Never felt locked in to my set up. I tomahawked twice in my last 2 days on them when I leaned in to a toeside turn and my board didn't turn like it usually does, and the nose went under. I can't remember the last time that happened.

So it was a combination of the Mtn plates with too much play, and the slider plate.

I've been on a Spark baseplate since just after I started splitting 4 yrs ago so going back to the Voile slider plate was an eye opener.

As far as needing a bit more lateral/medial flex.
Well I could use a very small bit more but I would rather see it in the boot than in the binding. The small amount of cant I have on each foot is just about enough.
I want a rock solid interface between the bottom of my boot and the board.
Previously with 'softboots' flex would come just above the ankle.
I spoke to my friend who gave me a hand with the bindings and we may put an adjustable cant into the cuff of the boot over summer( who has done this and how is it working).
He's done it for some other skier friends and has it down as a boot mod.
Before that I would try what you've done with the fit aids to see how it changes things.

And moving to the Intuition Pro Tour liner was unreal, I'll always have Intuition liners in all of my boots now( many thanks to Crystal)


I don't know if this makes sense, it's all new to me, but right now I've found what I like.

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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1522
Location: Colorado
Jamie: Totally agreed here on the Voile Mt. Plate, I have never ridden them, but a partner had them, and he hated them; they seemed to me that they might even release in a stressful situation, and did not inspire any confidence. Also agreed on Intuitions, properly fitted, they are the best liners around-I have a pair of the "Freerides" in my TLT5s. As to canting the cuff on the TLT5s: Stock, these boots have a positive cuff cant of about 2.5 degrees, this helps generate good edge pressure when split skiing, but is canted the "wrong" way for snowboard riding, I run 2.5 degree cants on both bindings to get the cuffs back to neutral. One could eliminate the binding cants by adding a cant rivet to the cuff of the boot, and adjusting to suit, but then the split skiing and skinning performance would suffer a little, there are always tradeoffs.
As to the flex with the Voile slider plate, if I understand you correctly, you think it allows the board itself to flex between the edge of the board and the edge of the puck? Do I understand you correctly? And that flex in this dimension is leading to a lack of response? Personally, I doubt that this is the case, and I believe a little give at the board edge is actually a good thing, to damp the edge contact and allow the board to "follow" a rougher surface better. I do believe that you have an increase in response using the Spark slider though, I just suspect the better response is due to the Spark plate being stiffer across the board, and therefore holding the board halves more in plane (reducing what I would call the "door hinge" effect). I have long thought the Voile slider is a relatively weak link in the splitboard interface, being that it is just a simple piece of thin, bent aluminum.
Puck flex is a big source of interface slop with the Voile slider: to check, I had one person carpet ride and hold the board on edge, while I looked at the puck edge: it was lifting right off of the board surface by quite a bit, adding the ski screw stopped this flex, of course the overlap of the Spark plate will also help stop the puck flex.
Maybe I'll see if I can get some baseplates from Will, I would like to fab up some bindings on them, and trim off the excess (on the sides) to get the weight reasonable.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:55 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Whistler, Coast Mtns
I don't think the Voile plate or the Spark plate have any difference in flexing the pucks but rather that the larger footprint of the Spark plate mostly on either side of the binding gives it the advantage. Not the edge of the board and pucks, but through the middle(lengthwise) of the plate. When I look at the 2 different sets of Voile plates I have both are nowhere near as flat along the bottom(the part that hooks under the pucks) as the Spark plate. It could be the extra 1 1/2cm of width on the sides contacting the board as it flexes.

The boot cant would be an adjustable one like on some other stock ski boots so that you could change it depending on the mode.

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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
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Location: Colorado
Yes, this is what I was trying to say:

"Not the edge of the board and pucks, but through the middle(lengthwise) of the plate."

That the Spark baseplates are inherently stiffer longitudinally, and as such, hold the board halves in plane better than the Voile slider does.
I assumed you meant an adjustable cuff cant rivet, that is a common mod on Dynafit boots for skiers who prefer a different cant angle than what is built in, but adjusting this in field would be quite fiddely and time consuming. Personally I would prefer just having the binding cants, but this is a personal preference issue.
BTW, doesn't the Blaze baseplate have a toe ramp? Did you bend this out, so it would not interfere with your toe piece, or? I am pretty sure with my 28 boots the toe ramp would interfere with my toe piece as far as getting a nice flat mounting surface for it.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Spark Baseplate with Rossi plate mod
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:44 pm
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Location: Cupertino, CA
barrows wrote:
BTW, doesn't the Blaze baseplate have a toe ramp? Did you bend this out, so it would not interfere with your toe piece, or? I am pretty sure with my 28 boots the toe ramp would interfere with my toe piece as far as getting a nice flat mounting surface for it.


He mounted them backwards, you can see the ramp on the heel bail. :wink:


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