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Splitboard.com Forums • View topic - Karakoram breaking after couple of days


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:08 pm 
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BGnight wrote:
Overall this is the responsibility of the customer to make sure his bolts are tight. All new technical gear in all sports usually requires attention by the consumer coming off the production line.

Loose bolts is NOT a 'failure' however. Very misleading word. Your product did not 'fail' you. You failed to keep your bolts tight. Just want to clarify that. All bindings split or solid have bolts come loose at inopportune times.

First, I'm not that interested in having a conversation about the semantics of the word I chose to describe my binding falling apart. How often should I have to check my bolts? I checked them before departing, and they were loose an hour into my first approach of the day. No product should need that much maintenance. If that much maintenance is necessary, something is failing. If I have to apply loctite every time I go out, something in the design is flawed. I'm also a little wary of the steel/aluminum combination, as my bolts have already scored some of the aluminum plates, and may have accelrated the loosening.
I don't want to be overly critical though, as I am sure that my experience is a rare occurrence.
I've received a very prompt and professional reply from Bryce, and he has informed me that they have since changed the threadlocking agent that was used on my binding. Very happy with the KK guys, as I know they are keen on further improving their bindings.

philip.ak wrote:
If you adjust the bolt (and break the thread lock bond) then you assume responsibility. If, however, it is a bolt installed at the factory and you do not touch it you should have every expectation that the manufacturer cares enough about their customers to properly torque fasteners.

Don't forget that if you "check" a bolt, and in the process you torque it enough to cause it to turn even a fraction, you no longer have the full strength of the thread locker.

Due diligence aside, there is a lot of burden on the customer here. The instructions do not supply a recommended torque value, nor a suggested type of threadlock. Therefore, how can I know if the bolts are tight without moving them? As a skeptic, how do I even know if they were assembled with a threadlocking agent?
Are you suggesting that perhaps I shouldn't check my bolts, and just have faith that everything is safe?

Undoubtedly the customer will end up having to reassemble the binding himself, and who knows what other problems that could incur. I found metal filings in some of the unused threaded holes. Is that a red flag indicating that my binding was fabricated haphazardly? See what I'm getting at?

All in all though, I am still impressed by these bindings, and will continue to use them once they are repaired. I'm just trying to share feedback with other users.


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm 
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philip.ak wrote:
If you adjust the bolt (and break the thread lock bond) then you assume responsibility. If, however, it is a bolt installed at the factory and you do not touch it you should have every expectation that the manufacturer cares enough about their customers to properly torque fasteners.

Don't forget that if you "check" a bolt, and in the process you torque it enough to cause it to turn even a fraction, you no longer have the full strength of the thread locker.



Very true with the thread locker delema. I use something called "vibratite". This stuff keeps my screws from backing out even if they are turned slightly. The vibrations incurred during riding/touring mode have a tendancy to loosen with anything less.

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:41 pm 
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rughty wrote:
I use something called "vibratite"


That's what she said


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Yes, there is a catch-22 in using thread locker. You basically cannot check the torque on locked bolts since it will break the thread locker holding power when the bolt moves. If you were being really strict, you would take clean, dry hardware, apply thread locker, install to a manufacturer supplied torque value and never have to touch it again. There is a reasonable assumption in the recommended torque that it will prevent loosening under normal use basically forever, otherwise it would seem that the wrong hardware or torque values have been specified.

That vibratite looks promising.

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:24 pm 
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A huge semiconducter company I used to work for did a study on why their (now don't get a hard on over this guys) million+ dollar tools would show up at customer sites with threadlocked screws laying on the floor. They went to the trouble of installing cameras, vibration sensors, etc... in the tools during shipping. It was crazy to look at how certain frequencies would literally have these threadlocked parts backing out on their own. Vibratite was their fix and I have never had to reapply, retorque, or have a screw back out on me yet. :thumpsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:49 pm 
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philip.ak wrote:
Does anyone know the recommended torque value for the K binding bolts?


these tiny screws shouldn't require a torque wrench. thread locker and "snug" is plenty. I have a pretty good inch pound torque wrench (Snap-on) and I doubt it would be very accurate at such a small setting.

for whatever reason, as I did my initial set up of the bindings, i removed and loctite'd every screw before I took the system out, I've had no issues so far :thumpsup:

carrying an allen wrench for all your hardware and even some spare hardware should be a no brainer :twocents:

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:10 pm 
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stein wrote:
philip.ak wrote:
Does anyone know the recommended torque value for the K binding bolts?


these tiny screws shouldn't require a torque wrench. thread locker and "snug" is plenty. I have a pretty good inch pound torque wrench (Snap-on) and I doubt it would be very accurate at such a small setting.

for whatever reason, as I did my initial set up of the bindings, i removed and loctite'd every screw before I took the system out, I've had no issues so far :thumpsup:

carrying an allen wrench for all your hardware and even some spare hardware should be a no brainer :twocents:


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:06 pm 
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I wonder about that. I have a lot of bikes and 4mm Allen screws are very common. On Thomson stems, for instance, they specify a torque of 4n*m on the face plate bolts. Those are steel bolts threaded into aluminum. They are a critical component, and under or over torquing could have dire consequences. Basically any important fastener should have a torque value, and most good torque wrenches will read that low. On the YouTube vid where the Klosters show how to adjust the forefoot portion of the binding, it looks like he really cranks down on the screw. Not snug, but tight.

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Location: Anchorage, AK
I use Devcon Plastic Steel on all my bindings hardware...


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:31 am 
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I had problems with loosening of my k plates last year. I always used blue loctite. But I figured out what the deal was when specing some loctite for my job. Stainless fasteners take twice as long to cure the loctite and the bond is half as strong as steel fasteners. I always did mine the night before riding in my cold workshop. I bet it never fully cured. My fix was doing it days before riding and leaving my board in my kitchen. The screws have never loosened again. None of them.

Also Karakorams do require setup. If you do not set them up correctly you can have play in the binding interface or they can be too tight. Either of these could be bad and will put extra stress on the parts. I have set them up on 2 boards and helped a friend with another. Voile, Venture and Neversummer. Each one the setup was different. Splitboards are not yet perfect. Or it is possible they might never be. Jones has had weird tolerance issues. If clips are not clipping tight, could it be the holes in the board and not the clips? Or if there is no adjustment left in the binding, it could also be the board? I did a lengthy post on my setup last year and how to get it dialed.http://splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9427 I feel like this is a HUGE thing that needs to be done right to get the most out of this system. And if done wrong could lead to failures of some kind.


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:04 pm 
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zerodog wrote:
I have set them up on 2 boards and helped a friend with another. Voile, Venture and Neversummer. Each one the setup was different. Splitboards are not yet perfect.

Since own two splitties, once I settle on a binding I would prefer to have each board with pucks or binding plates mounted, and just be able to pop one set of bindings between the two boards. With the different spacings and tolerances between decks, I don't see how this will work with the K system since the lateral positions of the plates cannot be modified, and the binding itself is adjusted to match the mounting plates. With a Voile puck system the opposite is true: the binding is a fixed dimension and the pucks' spacing is adjusted to length. Unless you got lucky and your two splitboards match perfectly, I'm not sure how you could move the Karakorams between different decks without adjusting and re-loctiting the toe bolts. Has anyone pulled this off?

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Hey Irishgav - were you riding with treepilot that day. :wink:

if you're a Canuk or just riding in Canada, i think you just abuse your gear more. At least that is what I found riding up there last week. :lol:


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