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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:12 am 
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BGnight wrote:

Lol I don't have many days on mine (more than 3) but I personally know people that have hundreds of days on their garage made prototypes ridden in bounds and hucked off table tops in parks and not one thing has failed.

I pay for all my shit so I have no horse in this race. I just have very biased opinions on what shit is better and K makes the best bindings if you're into riding/touring performance.


1) If you can't ride a splitboard for 1 resort day, then it is a piece of shit in my opinion. I don't know anybody who doesn't ride their board on the resort at least once to get a feel for it. And I have put every splitboard I own through worse conditions in the backcountry than on the resort. So your argument there fails on all accounts sir.

2) That is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. Seriously. That is the equivalent of saying "man, red is a way better color than blue". And the fact you just told us you have a totally biased opinion (with no reasons why) leads me to never believe a word you say. Having a discussion with you about the quality of a product is useless because you are already set in your biased ways just because you own it and spent 600 bucks on it.

Gavan is telling his experience with the bindings. You cannot take away from something that happened. If you're telling me some irish guy on his first 3 days of the season is riding harder than jeremy jones on karakoram bindings, you're wrong. And even if he is, a product like that should last, especially for that price. That's the point of this discussion, nothing else. Like I said in your other thread, nobody can get a innovative/new product perfect the first time. It's going to take some time to get it right. The point is, if you aren't made of money and want something that will last, let the other gear whores and pros go figure out all the problems and get them fixed before you invest all your cash and in some cases your safety in a shiney new toy.


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:23 am 
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stoudema wrote:
I don't dispute your experience, having a binding break in the field is a scary experience, especially in ride mode. That said, however, I think it's important for other users and/or prospective users to know that the Karakoram system does work and works well. I've been riding it for over a year and logged many days on both the Split 30's and the SL's in a variety of conditions. It's by far my favorite for both ride mode and skinning, and I've used everything from the Voile sliders to the Ignitions, Ignition 2's and the Blazes. As has been discussed before, there will always be cases of gear malfunction in some fashion (that's why companies offer warranties, etc.) and all companies have had and will continue to have gear issues. To say that a product in general is inferior however, is a bit mis-leading in my opinion. I'd definitely agree that the set you ended up with were inferior though, and I feel your pain to that end, and can understand why you're moving to the Sparks.



Thanks man,I'm not trying to lead other people astray and be a dick about it,I've clearly stated that I found the Karakoram binding to ride better than my Blaze,not miles better,not that much better that I wait for the Klosters to come back from the trade shows to send me the new parts either.

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:16 am 
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I had a Salomon binding blow up on me. Does that mean that company is shit and has inferior products? I think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion. Shit happens. For everybody that thinks the Edison is the ultimate, and it may be. It wouldn't have been conceived without the Kloster brothers pushing the engineering side of this sport.

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:45 am 
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I agree, products do fail, I have had High Backs crack and the aluminium frame on a lovely set of Drake Matrix bindings break on me in the past, but both of these failings were after a fair bit of use, IrishGav's situation seems to be down to either flaw in the design or manufacture of the baseplate (as it is not actually the binding that is the issue) which would indicate that Karakoram may possibly need to implement a stricter QC policy or more rigorous testing on their designs before going to market with a newer product.

At 210lbs myself, I am a little concerned that the baseplate may deform when pulling up on the deck.

However, although the Edison's do look like a nice, light weight design with a simple mechanism for switching modes, it is unlikely that many members of the public have ridden them - so we can't really say how good they will actually be. My primary concern would be the four little lugs on the baseplate and how they might hold up to the torsional forces a rider would put through them.

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Irish, thanks for clarifying what happened. I'm sure there are a lot of K owners on here who want to know exactly how they failed. I don't think you're intentionally misleading people, I just think your story wasn't clear as to what happened with the product exactly. So was your lever opened after you stopped and inspected it? You made it sound like it might have been opened from an alder bush. I would think when you stopped the latch was either open or closed with the black safety catch in place or not. Just looking for clues as anyone who rides this stuff would want to know. You also said your front K clip was loose which could have contributed to strange pressures on the plates...

Wilkez, I have no idea what you're talking about with regards to resorts and such. And I never tested my splitboards at resorts in the past. Only a handful of splitters I know test their stuff at resorts so ???. My argument seems solid. Even though Russman is tied to K'koram ask him how many problems he's had with his product. Or Bryce and Tyler for that matter. All those dudes test their product insanely hard as they are all very strong riders. I've toured with Russman a few times and as beat to crap as his pair of K's looks he's never had a problem with them. He's a pretty big dude who is very hard on gear. After hearing his feedback, seeing him ride the product first hand, and knowing how many days in many different conditions he has on them it's just as good as me testing them cuz there's no way I could generate the force he does on those bindings. And I returned my first pair of K's last year for Blazes due to some concerns. After my concerns were answered I went with the product so I did my homework.

I'm biased toward gear I believe is superior than another. That's it. I'm biased to what's better. Maybe it's the wrong use of the word lol. If I thought product A would perform better than product B, I buy A. I don't care who makes it. If Edison turns out to be the shit, is more reliable, and rides better than K's then I'm sure I'll be switching eventually if I have the $$. K'ram was way closer than any company to getting it right the first time in the splitboard industry. Sparks took 5x longer to dial in their bindings and they didn't have to invent an interface (and they still are an inferior ride!) I trust the guys with the schooling, knowledge of material science, who gave up high paying jobs to pursue their passion, as well as being super ripping riders over anyone else out there to take us into the future. Ok, maybe that's why I'm biased :P


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:37 pm 
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BGnight wrote:
Sparks took 5x longer to dial in their bindings and they didn't have to invent an interface (and they still are an inferior ride!) I trust the guys with the schooling, knowledge of material science, who gave up high paying jobs to pursue their passion, as well as being super ripping riders over anyone else out there to take us into the future. Ok, maybe that's why I'm biased :P

I've just got to chime in on this, Will at Spark R&D has his Masters in Mechanical Engineering and can ride from what I've seen, so I'd say between the Klosters and Will they are pretty equal in the schooling/shredding area.

As far as Spark taking 5X as long. There is a lot to that in my opinion. After Burton's failure, Spark was the first to really try something new in the split game. And at the time I believe Will was still finishing his Masters in Brozeman. So going from nothing on a students budget to something while trying to be repsectful to Voile and their patent took some time. The road paved there set the Karakorum folks up to take it a step further, and now based on nothing but intertubez photos and video's it looks like Spark is trying to up the ante again. We all win as consumers.

I have no stake in this game, I'm just a consumer watching for the best value to performance ratio for my needs. I run both hardboot and softboot set-ups. I've got 3 different splits, life is good. I've never really had any issues with the Voile puck system, others have and hate it. For me and my riding to date the Spark design has been a better value to performance ratio. Maybe I just suck, but being the best isn't why I splitboard, it's an escape, an adventure, exercise, time in the mountains. I've watched the Karakorum stuff and am interested, it looks rad and I see a lot of them on friends and other folks boards around Wasangelas with no complaints. In the next few years I'll definitely be upgrading, will it be Spark R&D, Karakorum, Voile or something else? No clue, but I'm stoked to have what I consider several great options to choose from depending on my budget and needs.

We are all winning, the rest is just people dick-waving. Chill out and enjoy what you have while not worrying about what others have and whether it's better than yours or not. Go out and shred, laugh with friends and tell dick and fart jokes, knowing the gear we all drool over is only getting better. :headbang:

My $0.02 :doobie:

UB

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Good points UB.

This thread is to figure out why this shit broke so it doesn't happen to others. I don't want my binding coming off when riding! I'm also defending K'ram as I don't think they're getting the respect they deserve. Will gets a ton and deserves it. The two companies should feed off each other in healthy competition and like you said the consumer is gonna win. Both should succeed and make money. I kinda see a Ford/Chevy type rivalry shaping up which I think is all good natured. I don't think the shit talking/dick waving is necessarily negative. It's something for gear heads to talk about and debate. This is a binding forum. This debate brings out flaws that hopefully are addressed by the owners. This forum would be sorta boring without dick waving. If I can't bag on fruitbooters then why be on the interwebz?!!! There's plenty of stoke on here to go around. When I'm not on sb.com and out splitting I don't think about this shit ever and could care less what other people are riding. Consumers don't need to be all P.C. (unless you're Canadian) when talking about inanimate objects that they pay for. I've given more money to Will than Bryce and Tyler anyway and I've contributed to both of their qualities of life outta my wallet :lol: I respect the shit outta both these companies. Voile not so much.
Shit, 3 years ago I was happier than a pig in shit riding my welded, breaking ignitions with frankenheelcups and straps. I thought life couldn't get any better.

Will, make a binding with a sidewall and carbon fiber highback and focus less on fancy paintjobs! See, I just fixed his companies problems and helped him sell more bindings :wink:
I've got my gripes with K's too. Stupid faaaaacking rubber bumper thingys that fall off! WTF?!...and of course stance width limitations and IrishGav's shit breaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:27 pm 
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BGnight wrote:
Irish, thanks for clarifying what happened. I'm sure there are a lot of K owners on here who want to know exactly how they failed. I don't think you're intentionally misleading people, I just think your story wasn't clear as to what happened with the product exactly. So was your lever opened after you stopped and inspected it? You made it sound like it might have been opened from an alder bush. I would think when you stopped the latch was either open or closed with the black safety catch in place or not. Just looking for clues as anyone who rides this stuff would want to know. You also said your front K clip was loose which could have contributed to strange pressures on the plates...

Wilkez, I have no idea what you're talking about with regards to resorts and such. And I never tested my splitboards at resorts in the past. Only a handful of splitters I know test their stuff at resorts so ???. My argument seems solid. Even though Russman is tied to K'koram ask him how many problems he's had with his product. Or Bryce and Tyler for that matter. All those dudes test their product insanely hard as they are all very strong riders. I've toured with Russman a few times and as beat to crap as his pair of K's looks he's never had a problem with them. He's a pretty big dude who is very hard on gear. After hearing his feedback, seeing him ride the product first hand, and knowing how many days in many different conditions he has on them it's just as good as me testing them cuz there's no way I could generate the force he does on those bindings. And I returned my first pair of K's last year for Blazes due to some concerns. After my concerns were answered I went with the product so I did my homework.

I'm biased toward gear I believe is superior than another. That's it. I'm biased to what's better. Maybe it's the wrong use of the word lol. If I thought product A would perform better than product B, I buy A. I don't care who makes it. If Edison turns out to be the shit, is more reliable, and rides better than K's then I'm sure I'll be switching eventually if I have the $$. Karakoram was way closer than any company to getting it right the first time in the splitboard industry. Sparks took 5x longer to dial in their bindings and they didn't have to invent an interface (and they still are an inferior ride!) I trust the guys with the schooling, knowledge of material science, who gave up high paying jobs to pursue their passion, as well as being super ripping riders over anyone else out there to take us into the future. Ok, maybe that's why I'm biased :P


You are definitely confusing the words "bias" and "opinion". In your opinion, you think karakoram is better. You are not "biased" because you have no affiliation with any of the products - you are a consumer like the rest of us. You will purchase K's because you THINK they are better. By using the correct terms, people will correctly interpret what you are trying to say. And honestly, on the internet, opinions from average joe's don't mean much. Experience is what counts.


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Sorry for the confusion :roll:
I just did 45 laps of power skinning on a 50 ft. grassy hill out back. Who's got experience now?! (no failures either!)


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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:07 pm 
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IrishGav wrote:
on the run out at the bottom near the highway i decided to straighline through a little alder scrub,then bang my binding breaks free from my back foot,below photo shows the damage,the little ear on my back foot outside breaks off!


shitty deals!

metal shouldn't just bend and break like that for no reason while cruising a runout, especially a whole interface...

I have 10 days on my Karakorams and a lot of confidence they aren't just going to disintegrate while cruising a mellow run out...

possibly if I tomahawk off a cliff into a tree, but that's a whole new set of problems :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:17 pm 
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While it is true that every company is going to have some failures, especially relatively new companies, with entirely an entirely new concept, it is important to take these kind of failures seriously, and make sure that people report them, both to the riding community, and to the manufacturer.
I am no hater, I have a great deal of respect for Karakoram, as they have spent a great deal of time and money in the development of an innovative splitboard interface system. But, a failure that allows the binding to separate from the board is totally unacceptable. Many of us ride in situations where such a failure could result in very serious injury, or even death.
IrishGav: I do hope that Karakoram has demanded that the broken pieces are returned to them for a thorough investigation of what caused the failure, and how they can guarantee that such a failure will never happen again, either through a design change (in case they determine that a design flaw is responsible) or better QC practices (if a manufacturing flaw is to blame).

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:26 pm 
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I think this is more of a "one-off" than a design flaw. (hopefully!)
I know someone on this forum who rode K's all last year and put probably 40-60 days (some very big days) on them without issue.

Bummed to hear your issue. I would always give the manufacturer a chance to make it right! Sometimes its all about how a company handles problems, if they do it right they will have a customer for life.

Nothing is perfect and snowboard gear breaks all the time....

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 Post subject: Re: Karakoram breaking after couple of days
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:47 pm 
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PedroDelfuego wrote:
I think this is more of a "one-off" than a design flaw.


+1

barrows wrote:
Many of us ride in situations where such a failure could result in very serious injury, or even death.


Meanwhile, I'll continue to put myself in situations where the consequences don't involve serious injury or death ...

Ride safe out there

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