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 Post subject: Re: Black Diamond/Voile climbing skins vs G3 skins
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:13 pm
Posts: 213
Thank you for the details, Philip!

Sometimes I latch both Karakoram clips, and see that the tips are not perfect, and I can align them without undoing the clasps. No big deal, really - can't happen once I have the Sparks on the pucks anyway. And if I am not careful, one clip plate may end up below the base while I fasten the other one (while it should be resting on the topsheet). All that said, I plan to continue using them as is. Not so sure what I'd choose if I set up another split, though

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Ivo


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile sikns vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Kodiak, AK
I just measured the effective footbed angle that the climbing bars achieve on both bindings. The Voile dual height heel risers produce a 12 degree footbed angle on the Burners with the low bar up, and a 20 degree angle with the tall bar. The Karakoram single height heel riser offers a 16 degree footbed angle with the Split30, basically splitting the difference of the two Voile heights. None of the climbing bars had plastic tubing on them. The measurements are probably +/-1 degree.

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Jones Solution 163W
Venture Zephyr 164/260
Never Summer SL 163X
Burton Spliff 148
Voile Mojo RX 166
BD, G3, and Gecko skins
Sparks!


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile sikns vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Kodiak, AK
Not a great day on the Split30s today. We went and did a short lap on a slope on our way to go XC skiing. Half way up the climb one of my climbing bars folded flat. I reached down and popped it back up. About 15 paces later it folded down again. I raised it and about 15 paces later it snapped off. F**k.

Image

I was kind of digging the single height nature of the riser where it split the difference between the two Voile dual height risers. The Karakoram bars had at least twice the free play in the up position of any heel riser bars I have used either tele skiing or splitboarding. The Voile looks like it really would not play nice with the Split30s since the bar sits at an angle to the binding's base plate and I can see how downward pressure will cause the wires to torque. I may try to make my own riser base plate out of aluminum or something.

I went to transition for the ride back down and was having a hard time getting the forward ride pin to find the toe base plate slot. I look down and see something black laying on the snow. It was one of the little bumper grommets that hold the binding off the deck. It had fallen off.

Image

This got me thinking about what gives these bindings stability on the deck. A lot of the base plate parts are very wide and unsupported. I locked the binding in place and just using my hand rocking the highback from side to side, I could get the base plate to lift pretty far off the deck. Everything is tight and correctly adjusted, it's just a long way from the mount screws to where the pins go into the base plate. The touring brackets also have a lot of play, even though they are new and the lever is locked all the way down. The way the touring adapter locks in is really cool, but the support is narrow and the parts just don't grab very tight.

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Jones Solution 163W
Venture Zephyr 164/260
Never Summer SL 163X
Burton Spliff 148
Voile Mojo RX 166
BD, G3, and Gecko skins
Sparks!


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile sikns vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:31 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:18 pm
Posts: 33
Hi Philip,
I dont think that your experience with your Split 30's is a one off. I was really sold on them at the beginning of the season and so justified to myself that they would be worth the extra money. I toured around 8 days on them and had quite a few issues myself. I had a toe strap break and had a heel strap fall off because the plastic washer/spacer that the bolt goes through literally disintegrated, allowing the strap to pull over the bolt. In fact all of the plastic washers broke! I too thought that the amount the binding flexed off of the board in ride mode was a little much. In all I like the idea, however in use they need to get some things sorted out, including higher grade materials. So, I switched to the Burners. I only have one day on them, riding a line on TinCan Proper and in the Library at Turnagain, and I am really happy. I feel I have a better connection to my board with the Sparks.

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Furberg Splitboard 160
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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:03 pm
Posts: 51
Agree the base plate does rock side to side and lift circa 1mm, & this looks to be caused by the large distance from the mount screws to where the pins go into the base plate.

I am running +/-12, maybe other angles produce a different result mounting points.

looking at the hole pattern in the board and the base plate.
there would be an option to drill an extra hole in the binding base plates nearer to the point of attachment/engagement with the bindings. this could improve/reduce the flex.

So far this has not troubled me and I still have a better connection to the board than the Fuse I ran before, side hilling is way easier.......

the other issues mentioned in the post of plastic washers cracking is likely due to locktite and plastic not mixing- I have added rubber washers for the straps, these move less and are not degraded by locktite.

also agree the K straps are crap, I exchanged them with some Rome Targa straps and now happy.

other comments (which others have already mentioned with Ks) are:
- the highbacks dont go far enough back
- hot spot under the ball of the foot (on longer tours >2000m)

All in all I would still spend the money on the Ks as is and accept the extra personal modifications as part of life to get to ultimate binding set up.
however my view for 2012/13 is, the brothers need to fix/improve the "soft" furnishings to keep a pace with the spark team as most people want perfect right out of the box.


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Kodiak, AK
Good points, but I'm not sure I totally agree on the sense of connection to the board. I took my Spark Burners out yesterday and the totally slop free LT touring setup was a nice change from the K's. I also liked being able to slide the bindings right on without having to beat on the board in various places, and once mounted the bindings are totally locked down. The plates on the K's flex quite a bit, and while you don't really feel it while riding, it just does not seem like a desirable behavior.

Bryce is sending me two new touring brackets, rubber bumpers, and a heel piece, so I'll try to keep an open mind for round two. I had already put some Burton straps on, so at least that was sorted.

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Jones Solution 163W
Venture Zephyr 164/260
Never Summer SL 163X
Burton Spliff 148
Voile Mojo RX 166
BD, G3, and Gecko skins
Sparks!


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:05 am
Posts: 1516
Location: 395
Nice review philip!

I'll give my :twocents:
I've had two days on my Karakoram SL's (once in cold pow and once in warm pow) and without any practice my transition time is cut by 1/3 with Karakoram over a puck set up (my transition time just got even faster with geckos). So effing easy to use and not having to jam your clogged/iced bindings over pucks is nice. The Karakoram base plates are super simple to clear before putting your binding on. And having ridden Blazes (exact same as Burners) there is a pretty big difference in riding performance. And riding performance is most of the reason I'm using a binding. My boot rolls side to side in Sparks and feel really sloppy (for some reason I seem to be the only one that notices this as if I'm on crazy pills). Not so in Karakorams SL's (or Rughtys :mrgreen: ) (Imho, the DIY rughty Ride SPI's on Voile pucks is hands down the best split binding as far as riding performance) I like the SL straps but hate the buckles. I replaced my ankle strap buckles already cuz you can tell they will break on a cold day. In tour mode with the riser DOWN what I don't like about Karakorams is your heel actually drops LOWER than your toe. This is a flaw that could easily be fixed by them or DIY though. Oh and they weigh nothing! :thumpsup:
Oh yeah, forgot I hate that you can't micro adjust your stance width with K base plates but it's not that big of deal. And the LT touring bracket and K axle are about the same in performance. Oh again: those stupid rubber bumpers fall off right away. Kind of retarded.

Geckos vs BD/Voile:
1 day on geckos (vs a million on Voile) and they blow the Voiles the fuck outta the water. I'm sure I'll experience their downsides in the future but the one day I used them (4 transitions) every aspect about them was better (yes even grip!...although they're new and there weren't too many shitty spots in skin track) Geckos are fucking light!!!


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:57 pm
Posts: 269
Location: Chamonix
I started a thread about my K's breaking and decided to get my money back,I already have a set or burners and have now got a pair if blazes.
All in all i am really disappointed in the Karakoram system,especially the clips and climbing wires,either that or I'm the guy who gets sent all the dud gear!

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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Kodiak, AK
I'm not that excited about mine at this point either, but I will give them another chance once the replacement parts from K show up. I just don't see any overwhelming benefit to the Split30s at this point, and after seeing the Spark Edison system I am very temped to just dump the Ks and ride my Burners for the season and see how that new Spark system shapes up. Your breakage/bendage was probably highly unusual for the Split30s, but the whole system just seems flexy and a bit Rube Goldberg-esque to me. I'm trying hard to think of a category in which I prefer the Karakorams over the Sparks at this point.

_________________
Jones Solution 163W
Venture Zephyr 164/260
Never Summer SL 163X
Burton Spliff 148
Voile Mojo RX 166
BD, G3, and Gecko skins
Sparks!


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:35 am
Posts: 17
I have the K- clips and i love love love them. I had to make the holes a little bigger so that the fit wasn't so tight it would break my fingers. Super fast, makes the board feel stiffer- more like my inbounds board. Here is what to do if they are too tight.

"How tight should the board clips be?
The board clips should snap into place, but should not be difficult to lift. If the board clips feel too tight, you can open up the mounting holes on the hook side of the board clips using a 5.4mm (#3 ANSI) drill bit and up to a 5.5mm (7/32 ANSI) drill bit. "

I actually ended up using my dremel tool and just notched it out a little.


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 Post subject: Re: BD/Voile skins vs G3 skins, & Karakoram vs Spark bindings
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 675
Location: Kodiak, AK
The clips are starting to relax a little as they stretch/wear-in, and I can do it with my fingers now without frightening small woodland creatures. I can't say they make the board ride very differently yet since conditions here have been soft, but they do seem to pull the halves together damn tight. What I do notice is a lot of noisy creaking as the two halves rub against each other when the board gets loaded and the halves try to shift. I have learned to line the halves up carefully before I lock the clips down, and things are working out well.

_________________
Jones Solution 163W
Venture Zephyr 164/260
Never Summer SL 163X
Burton Spliff 148
Voile Mojo RX 166
BD, G3, and Gecko skins
Sparks!


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