Splitboard.com Forums

The World's first exclusive splitboard discussion forums






It is currently Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:22 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 118
So I have problems with my feet. Last year I had a problem with a tendon on the outer edge of both feet. To the point where I gave myself some tendinitis that seemed to take all winter to get over. The solution to this was custom foot beds with a huge firm arch. Then a new problem started to arise. Maybe foot bed related. My toes and the just in front of the ball of my foot feel like the are on fire, and this changes to smashed with a hammer feel complete with bleeding. No blood this is just the feeling I have. This happens skinning, riding or sometimes worse just walking. I take my feet out, wiggle my toes and squeeze them and this pain goes away. At least for a while. Yesterday my boots were off twice to do this.

So you might say, it is the foot bed. But I put these same foot beds in my hiking boots and my feet are as happy as can be.

The boot shop that has been helping me with this, (Inkline in Salt Lake City) has told me that my Driver Xs are way too big. I need to downsize bigtime. They said don't even try the boots on with the liner. Try them on with your foot in the boot. 1-1.5 fingers is all you should have behind your heel if you shove your toes to the front. This is the correct amount for a heat moldable liner. This blows my mind. I have almost 1 inch now. But after almost crawling back to the car yesterday I am ready to try anything.

I am thinking Malamutes. If those don't work, maybe coughing up the cash for mountaineering boots? The reasoning with that is they will be more like a hiking boot. Without the soft as hell footbed zone of a snowboard boot liner.

What do you guys think of this??


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:21 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 672
Location: Kodiak, AK
I can make my feet hurt more and more the tighter I cinch my laces and bindings. Immobilizing your feet and then squeezing the crap out of them is the issue, I suspect. Hiking boots still flex even when reefed down. Funny tha t the shop says your boots are too big though. Can you make them snug enough without hot spots? The Driver Xs are super easy to adjust with their lacing zones, so have you tried running them super loose over the forefoot and leaving your bindings loose for skinning? It may not help for riding. I like my setup tight on the way down.

_________________
Jones Solution 163W
Venture Zephyr 164/260
Never Summer SL 163X
Burton Spliff 148
Voile Mojo RX 166
BD, G3, and Gecko skins
Sparks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:23 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Missoula, MT
I still believe this is your arch begging for more!

I just bought a brand new pair of 32 primes. SUPER flat footbed. I have really high arches.

Had the exact same pain you describe. Exact. It was from my heel and ball(toes) area of my foot just smashing with each step. Add straps from a binding and its a recipe for disaster.

I know you already mentioned the custom foot bed, but this to me is a sign that too much weight is on the ball/heel of your feet.

Edit: I don't think you are getting your foot to 'roll' either.. If you are using heel climbers on so-so steep terrain, you will be smashing the bone behind your toes into the ground... Optimum IMO would be a full stride, rolling through the ball of your feet and using your toes to push. This would also explain the hiking boot being more comfortable. The shank may be more forgiving in those, allowing a more natural 'rolling' foot step.

I really don't think buying new boots will solve this issue. Both snowboard and mountaineering boots will have a stiff sole/shank, not easily allowing your arch and lateral foot muscles to stretch and be used efficiently.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:51 am
Posts: 640
You are cutting off circulation to your feet somehow. Here are a few suggestions:

Don't tighten your boots so tight. Sounds simple but you really don't need them that tight, if the boots are too big, you might be over-tightening them to compensate for a bad fit. Have you had the liners baked?

Mess with your heel straps angling them back more than down so that they are pulling your boot back into the binding instead of down. Sounds like you may be crushing your foot into the footbed.

Mountaineering boots are not the answer. Very little padding on the top of the foot would open a whole new can of worms.


I would consider seeing an experienced bootfitter. A lot of guys working in shops might be good at making minor alterations but it sounds like you might need to see a specialist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:17 pm
Posts: 296
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Hola Zerodog,

It sounds like you might have some of the symptoms related to a nueroma (i.e. nerve tumor---which is nerve thickening due to trauma). It is hard to diagnose your issue over the internet, especially since I am a geologist and not a podiatrist. I will throw out my experience with a Morton's nueroma in case some of the symptoms sound familiar with you.

Several years ago, I developed some moderate pain in my right (lead) foot. The pain was concentrated on the outside ball of my foot, as well as my two right toes. The pain manifested itself as tingling, burning, and pressure (almost like my toes were in a vice). The pain was typically worse after a morning of punching through crud and heavy snow. The pain was slight to moderate for several years---and only felt while boarding in heavy snow. I had a number of visits to boot fitters that tried to help but I had limited success. Many of them thought that I needed a tighter fitting boot. Hmmmm, that turned out to be the wrong call.

I had a pretty nasty crash on my mountain bike and ripped a few (more) ligaments in my ankle--and went to see a sports podiatrist. I took advantage of the visit by describing my symptoms to him and he accurately diagnosed my condition as a Morton's nueroma (i.e. a thickening of the nerve between the metatarsal bones in my foot due to trauma---in my case, snowboard boots that were too tight). You can find a description on the internet that will be much more accurate than my description. Caught early, you can easily deal with this condition by wearing thinner socks and boots/shoes with a wider toe box. You really need to relieve the pressure off of the forefoot. If the nureoma is more advanced (i..e the nerve thickening is advanced), you can often control pain with a cortisone shot. Some people deal with the issue by getting a wider boot and an annual cortisone shot---and are good to go.

My nueroma did not respond well to the cortisone shot and my symptoms eventually became severe---I had foot pain all of the time and even driving was painful. I had an MRI---and they found an unusually huge nueroma (1" x 0.3"). You oftren can't even see nueromas on MRIs because then tend to be a bit too small. My surgery was scheduled soon afterwards. The surgery, which can be problematic, was a success. However, I now have to be very careful about boot selection (and shoe selection in general, I now always wear wide shoes). I now wear custom orthotics, which are a big help, but the most important accommodation was boot selection. I now have to wear wide toe box boots that have beet fitted/punched out to create an even wider toe box. I have had great luck with Van boots (I wear the Vans Cirro where I can keep the lower Boa zone looser than the upper Boa portion of the boot) for my soft boot set up and Black Diamond Primes (a wide forefoot hard boot) for my hard boot splitboard set-up. For both my soft boots and hard boots, I spend the time and money on a quality boot fitter. So far, so good.

I guess if I had to offer any advice, and you have trouble sorting out your pain fairly soon, I would strongly recommend visiting a sports podiatrist (especially one familiar with snow sports--ski boots cause lots of problems). I waited much too long to get a diagnosis and I didn't give the boot fitters the info they needed to try to mitigate the problem early on. Once I got the correct diagnosis, treatment (this may not be necessary in your case), and guidance from the sports podiatrist, the boot fitters took it from there.

It has been 4 years since my surgery, and I will always have to be careful, but my foot feels great when boarding. Life is good.

Good luck, Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:23 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Missoula, MT
shredgnar wrote:
You are cutting off circulation to your feet somehow.

This is related, but I don't think its a lace tighting. I think your arches/lateral muscles aren't being used. Your boot/stride is not allowing them to be naturally stretched when walking uphill in bindings.

shredgnar wrote:
Mess with your heel straps angling them back more than down so that they are pulling your boot back into the binding instead of down. Sounds like you may be crushing your foot into the footbed.

This. If you can get your heel back, it will allow you a more natural rolling stride that starts in your heels and rolls to your toes. Use your hamstrings, don't just use your quads to smash up the hill...

JimmyC wrote:
I took advantage of the visit by describing my symptoms to him and he accurately diagnosed my condition as a Morton's nueroma

Yup, pretty sure this is me too. It's funny, in the last 2 weeks (especially after the first day out in the new Primes) The area between my 3rd and 4th toe has felt exceptionally weird...I now know exactly why! http://bit.ly/w9cDu9

JimmyC wrote:
I now have to wear wide toe box boots that have beet fitted/punched out to create an even wider toe box.

The new 32 Primes I described have a huge toebox, which is why I was confused on the increase of pain intially. I have noticed the bigger toe box was a relief from my previous boots though, as far as related pain, once I got my after market footbeds in place.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:17 pm
Posts: 296
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Cool, thanks for the info on the 32's Digerati.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 118
wow! Thanks for all of the responses guys. Jimmy I hope I don't have any damage going on in there.

I have been working with a boot fitter (Inkline) on this issue. I have always had problems with my feet. Even when I was a kid skiing. Mostly it was this outer edge of the foot pain. That sucked. I even had bruises from it last fall. That is what led me to getting the orthotics made at the boot shop. The difference was night and day but the damage was done. It took all winter last year to recover from it. But I still toured every weekend. But then this new pain started toward the end of the year. It has become as big of a problem as the first one.

My drivers are huge. I started chasing heel lift problems last year and have a bunch of boomerang shaped rubber pads glued onto the achilles zone. This has eliminated the lift. So I have a ton of wiggle room in the toe area. I barely strap my bindings for going up. I barely tighten the toe lace. And I crank the hell out of the upper lace. This above all has helped. I think the tight shin area controls the boot more and lets my foot be free. Without the control my foot might be sliding around compounding problems.

Yes I think I put too much weight on the toe zone for too long. I believe a big part is the massive amount of forward lean the drivers have built in. So even standing on flat ground, it is driving my toes down and making me bend my knees. These are have 2 seasons on them now going on the 3rd. And they are still stiff.

I went to Milo sport and looked at quite a few boots today. There are subtle differences between liners that I believe could be a HUGE factor. The foot bed of most liners is soft foam. I am not talking about the insole. Just the foam liner. Malamutes have a firm thinner rubber sole on the liner. Nitro Teams are similar but a little thicker. Everything else I looked at had thick soft foam. Just like my drivers. I bought the Malamutes for this reason only. My theory is that the orthotic foot beds I have are pretty hard. They need a hard surface to sit on, like a boot or a shoe. The soft foam allows the footbed to flex somewhat allowing it to push up between the ball of my foot and my toes. This is where the pain happens. The hard plastic getting bowed up into an unnatural shape? Maybe the malamutes will be a better surface for the footbeds to sit on? This is my theory and I am sticking to it!

So I promptly drove down to Inkline with the new boots and was rejected. They looked at my foot in the boot with no liner and my foot in the liner and said too big. Go get the smaller size. I ended up with 9s instead of my 11 drivers. The liner fits me like a wet suit sock. I am getting fit on Wednesday. So I will see how it goes. I could be selling a brand new slightly molested pair of malamutes next week. It was a weird experience trying on the outer boot without the liner and the liner alone with no regard to how the 2 fit together. The idea is all of that will be fixed with heat molding and stretching. :shock: They also said maybe re-doing the foot beds with even more arch and using one with more of a padded toe zone.

The Malamutes are very stiff. Much stiffer than my drivers are now. But even with this I stand up straighter with them. They have very little forward lean built in. I think this could be a huge step forward for touring. It will allow me to slide forward further and push more with my heels. Some day, there will be snowboard boots that have touring mode! With negative lean that can be locked down into ride mode!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:55 am
Posts: 1008
Location: Wasatch
I had a similar issue with some scarpa f1's this year. they were a little too big, not the outside edge of my feet got annihilated on every tour. The last straw was a short tour up pole line pass, even something like that almost had me in tears. I am back to riding my older scarpa's and I have no pain. I wish I new exactly what the deal was because I really liked the f1's for splitboarding, but they just didn't like my feet. I did spend a few days on my ole resort set up(32 team two's) and they also hurt my feet. I don't know maybe I'm just turning into a giant pussy. I never used to have boot problems, but i'm having a hard time finding a good boot for me. I was thinking about giving inkline a try.

_________________
"it's like having fun, only different..."
http://www.facebook.com/danzgatesphoto


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 118
Boots are done. They have an interesting fit. Very snug but no pain. I have room to wiggle my toes but no room to move my foot at all. I will see how it goes this weekend. The heat forming was more involved a lot more than I have done in the past. Thick socks. Spacer cap in the toe area. More spacers on other spots on my foot. And my insole. All of this was held in place by some leggings. Then standing in an odd position for a long time while everthing cooled. Now to see if the Malamutes actually held this shape or if they relaxed.

So they said go ride em. If there is problems they can be addressed next. But the the size "overall length of the boot" is perfect. There is stretching that can be done to the shell if needed too.


Wasatch Surf you should check them out. They helped me a ton last year. It is cool to have a resource like that here in SLC. I think most snowboarders never think to get their boots tuned. If your feet have problems, live with it, or get new boots........that seems to be the way for snowboarders. Or you can take boots that you like and beat them into submission to work with your feet! This seems to be the norm for skiers. They do this all the time. Snowboarders need to start too. Especially as boots become more solid and have more tech features.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 682
Location: Tahoma, Ca
gotta have super tight boots. im a boot fit snob. i started working in the ski industry in 2003 at footloose which is one of the best bootfitters in the west.

i wear 11 size street shoes, 9.5 size snowboard boots and 26.5 (8.5) ski boots.

gotta have a tight fit or your little foot muscles are doing too much work, hence the pain.

snowboard boots cannot be stretched or heat molded like ski boots usually, but if you are riding AT boots you can heat em up with a heat gun and punch out the shells to gain a few mm's inside there.

you can replace normal snowboard boot liners with intuition liners, which will heat mold inwards toward your foot, as well as in to the shell of the boot.

_________________
www.tahoemobileskirentals.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 118
It dumped here in UT. So I broke down and went to a resort yesterday because avalanche conditions were bad here in UT. It sucked but, it was a great way to test the new setup.

I was really skeptical about the boots. They were tight! But I rode all day. And I had no pain! Or at least very little. It was amazing. No bottom of the foot pain what so ever. Not even a little. And this is using my existing orthotic footbeds that were cut down to fit these tiny boots. I had some pressure on the sides of the feet, but not anything terrible. And we rode all day long in choppy shitty resort snow. :clap: I can not wait to get out and tour with these.

Thank you Inkline!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Horrible foot pain
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:52 am
Posts: 118
Update:

Toured several times with these boots. First time I actually had some pretty good heel lift. Other than a blister on my heel, I had zero pain. :rock: The Malamutes have some pockets for these support boomerangs in the liners. I made some thicker boomerangs out of some 1/125 rubber and stuffed it into the pockets. This helps pinch around my achilles better and help eliminate lift. I also removed the plastic supports out of the shell to let the boot flex more naturally while touring. They are so stiff that the only movement available was the heel lifting.
This past weekend I did a level 1 avalanche class. I was touring and walking around for 2 days straight. No issues at all. Unbelievable. My drivers would have had me crawling after a few hrs of standing around in the snow. Just standing around was one of the worst tortures with them.

Inkline rocks :rock: if you are in SLC and have foot issues. Check em out!!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  





Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group