Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:57 am Posts: 1106 Location: Santa Barbara, CA/Ashland, OR
Tks Jimw..yeah..thats what I meant about the core shrinking on splits. In regards to the aluminum in the steel touring brackets..would it really matter if it chewed it up? It seems extremely unlikely it'd chew all the way through it since the amount of flex it would be inhibiting doesn not present over a wide range (does that make since? the board halves are not flexing all that far right between your bindings, so how could it chew all the way through?), but I'm not a materials engineer type so maybe I'm way off base.
At any rate..I too run the LT brackets, so aluminum seems a better fit for me. I think you make a great point though about whether the brackets/screws/inserts are designed for and can withstand that particular type of stress. Breaking a touring bracket way out in the backcountry would hardly be worth the small amount of improved performance this mod may offer.
Erik, you can always redrill (read, move the split hooks out toward the nose/tail or in toward your binding while putting the holes where they need to be so the hooks fit tighter) as monk once suggested to me. It'd be a bigger project when a fairly inexensive fix like the K clips exists, but it's a viable one.
_________________ "Winter is not a season, it's an occupation." -Sinclair Lewis
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:51 am Posts: 459 Location: Surfing or Splitboarding Downunder
See picks below The red lines show the normal points that hold the board together as well as the tail / nose clips.
Its logical that the yellow line shown where the pin is mounted evenly spreads the load distribution in the board. This is my opinon and I could be wrong. The proof is in the testing and to me the board feels more responsive than without it. Over here we dont get "deep" conditions but mainly firm coverage so it may be more in line with our conditions. I my mind its a mod that is easy and has no impact the std board (no extra holes or hacking needed)
The Chinese hooks are to help facilitate putting the board together more than anything.
Those hooks also provide torsional rigidity between the board halves between the bindings and the tip clips. To see this in action, just put the split into ride mode but leave the hooks pivoted out of the way. A little carpet jibbing should convince you of their usefulness. For extra credit, undo the tip clips too.
Back to the split hooks. Some I believe some people in the past have posted about modified hooks that have more overlap area, and even modified pucks that overlap the board center. As with most things related to "stiffness" and making a board "ride more like a solid", these things are a lot more noticeable the harder the snow gets.
Gotta try out that "rod mod"...
They provide maybe a little torsional rigidity, but I am betting you'd hardly notice it if they weren't there. It's not like they apply pressure like the Karakorum clips. The rigidity gained is going to be done more by the overlap than a tight fit with the Chinese hooks.
I'll also say this is an issue that I have not had a problem with.
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm Posts: 1606 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Again, I encourage folks to actually try riding with the split hooks not connected. For me the difference is pretty obvious. It's probably never been an issue for you because 1) you never accidentally put the board together with the split hooks swiveled out of the way, and 2) you do more riding on that "powder" stuff than icy death hardpack.
BTW you're right that the rigidity is totally due to the overlap; a tight fit is not required. Also agreed on that point about the cap construction making a difference in the perceived gap, because as the board halves flex there is only that small amount of cap from the sides that stays in contact along the seam vs. a normal sidewall construction. Speaking of the cap construction, that is also why you probably don't want to use Karakoram clips on the Mojo - the gap in the surface of the board along the top of the center seam will cause the cause the clips to want to pull the board halves up, like a door hinge. Someone reported something like this happening on his Mojo a while back.
Jbay, I still dunno about aluminum, not because of durability but because of stiffness. That's a long rod (lever), and the forces acting on it are different from a slider pin in a single bracket in tour mode. Might work, I dunno. At Ace hardware though, the aluminum stock selection is pretty limited!
Are guys smoking crack or something of course the chinese hooks improve torsional stiffness, quite a bit actually. In terms of how the mod afffects flex if you go to the store and check out a new board the first thing we do is check the flex of the board. We do that by pushing in the middle of the board to see how soft or stiff the board is. The mod doesn't effect that sort of flex so you can still pop, etc. What is does is keep two board halves more soundly in place (that is torsional stiffness..right or do I need to put the crack pipe down). Anyways it's a great mod that's nice to have in the tool box.
It's simple to prove or debunk any of this: strap in to your board with different components clipped or unclipped - the Chinese clips, end clips, add a rod through the toe pieces, etc. Then twist your feet back and forth to get torsional flex. It's pretty obvious what will happen.
Well besides that we are completely off topic from what the OP was going for. K-Clips are now in stock at the Karakorum store! I just bought a set. I'll put them to snow next week. I've heard good things about these bad boys, looking forward to trying them out!
Put em on tight Killclimbz, I've checked out three boards now with K-clips 2 of which I got more movement in-between the boards halves than I did comparing it side-by-side with the chinese hooks. The third was on there so tight it U-ed out the board and it was side-walled. However, that one U-ed out board was pretty dam snug I'll give it that much. Look I'm not trying to down or talk shit on anyone or stifle creativity in anyway. But either some of the guys on here don't know shit, or I'm missing something along with a lot of other guys who don't necessarily dork out on the internet. I've checked out the K-bindings too, and like I said maybe I'm missing something and I'm just too focused on shredding but a lot of shit has been talked on here and it's fallen way short to what I was expecting. Just another perspective, take it or leave it but by goodness, I've got a brain and a pair of balls and I'm not afraid to use them. Let us know.
Well, I just mounted them using the Chinese hook holes. Not much of an option to tighten them there. I've been using them on a Venture Odin and I've been quite impressed. The board is much more solid than with the Chinese hooks. Huge difference actually. I may swap them onto my Heritage for this weekend.
They cam nice and tight, but not overly so. I could see where there would be slop if they weren't tight enough. That would then suck. Right now I am pleased. We'll see if I keep that opinion after 30, 40, 50, 100 days with them. How they handle abuse is a big part of the equation no doubt.
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm Posts: 1606 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
So I finally got me one of them new-fangled ride mode pins. Tested it out on my recent eastside road trip. Verdict - works for me! I'd still like to do a more controlled test though at a resort, on a run with hard snow, doing the same run twice in a row, once with and once without the pin.
I ordered the pin from firstlight, who went above and beyond to get the pin to me before my trip. I trimmed it down a bit to be closer to my particular board width. For a "leash" I used one of the pin leashes from a Spark binding, along with that backcountry essential, Ye Olde Hair Tie (tm). (I also use hair ties on the binding pins, which is why I had the Spark leashes lying around.) Also put a bit of heat shrink tubing on one end so that the pin stayed more centered on the board. On my Burton, the pin stayed in place when riding. On that board I have regular Voile touring brackets. On the Jones, with the LT pin system, it seemed to want to move around a little, and one of the touring bracket bushings seemed to keep coming loose but only when the ride mode pin was in place, not when touring. Strange. Other than that though, I like it.
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:37 pm Posts: 136 Location: East of the Cascades, Wa
I have had this come up often lately and I have found it has way more to do with the installation of the hooks more so than which option you choose. Most if not all factory splits I have worked on have very sloppy hooks. They do not line up the ends of the boards well and are not set very tight at all. The issue gets really bad with older factory splits, to the point where you can literally click the board halves they are so loose!
Compared directly to k clips, a tight set of hooks does a very good job in reducing the torsional flex issue. The 2 sets of k clips I have put on (without bindings on) allowed for more movement in the center of the board than the voile hooks. These were not maxed out for tightness, but basically set as per karakorams instructions. I honestly feel after installing both, either one when installed correctly does a good job at its intended, and that is to hold the ends of the board together.
I don't have anything against karakoram clips, I very much like the design, they are simply not the answer to this issue alone. I really think the full cure to this is to run voile hooks on the ends and a k clip in the center. You get the best of both designs, the hooks allow for easy alignment of the board halves, while the k clips pull the center tight and eliminates that flex completely. The pin probably works quite well to eliminate the flex, but i think pulling the halves together would be of even bigger benefit.