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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:09 am 
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Sounds like a plan, thanks for the assistance again. :guinness:


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:44 pm 
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barrows wrote:
Sorry Tilted, I guess my post was not quite clear enough-this is not how I measure the edge length and determine sidecut center.
I find the center of the sidecut (or effective edge length) disregarding rocker or camber. The reason for this, is that when a board is fully on edge, as it is in a steep terrain turn, the entire effective edge contacts the snow.

Thanks for the clarification, I was wondering about that (whether to account for rocker). I'll have to go try this out on my current boards and see where I'm at! :)

tiltedworld wrote:
If I move one more insert pack back that would get me to ~1.5" back and actually pretty close to Barrow's preferred setback (3.75cm). However, since the sidecut is setback from the board length, the nose was starting to feel on the long end of normal for me and I wonder how one insert back will feel.

One thing you might consider is just moving your rear foot back. Then you get 1/2" stance center change instead of 1". Yeah, your stance will be wider by 1", but... you might like it! I was annoyed that I had to do this on my Jones because of the insert pattern. I had to go to like 22.5", and had been running about 1" narrower on previous boards. But so far, I like it. Might be worth a shot.

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Sunday was 40 degree at 9am so I left the split and rode the solid on some groomers and the park at Squaw.

I'm a big fan of riding the split at the resort, especially for setup testing like this. You can swap between your resort board and the split for comparison, and make incremental tweaks on the split and do multiple laps on the same run in close to identical conditions, which makes the testing more objective. Plus it's fun to take some laps in the park on the split and get funny looks from the groms. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:33 pm 
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jimw wrote:
tiltedworld wrote:
If I move one more insert pack back that would get me to ~1.5" back and actually pretty close to Barrow's preferred setback (3.75cm). However, since the sidecut is setback from the board length, the nose was starting to feel on the long end of normal for me and I wonder how one insert back will feel.


One thing you might consider is just moving your rear foot back. Then you get 1/2" stance center change instead of 1". Yeah, your stance will be wider by 1", but... you might like it! I was annoyed that I had to do this on my Jones because of the insert pattern. I had to go to like 22.5", and had been running about 1" narrower on previous boards. But so far, I like it. Might be worth a shot.


jimw wrote:
tiltedworld wrote:
Sunday was 40 degree at 9am so I left the split and rode the solid on some groomers and the park at Squaw.

I'm a big fan of riding the split at the resort, especially for setup testing like this. You can swap between your resort board and the split for comparison, and make incremental tweaks on the split and do multiple laps on the same run in close to identical conditions, which makes the testing more objective. Plus it's fun to take some laps in the park on the split and get funny looks from the groms. :)


Funny you should mention that. I was considering doing that but the youngin's meltdown left me just wanting to ride as much as I could without fiddling on Sunday, which is why I chose the solid.

But on a whim, I re-tried riding duck after not trying it since the days of 28" stances and short lunch tray boards. :lol: I was helping someone learn and riding switch all morning and it dawned on me that I didn't have the knee pain associated with how I rode duck years ago, presumably because of a normal stance width (for my size). So out came the screwdriver and went to -3 on the back from +6. I was surprised as snot that I actually really liked it. So it wouldn't surprise me if I liked 22" wide instead of my normal 21.5" I had ridden 22" before, but felt I lost too much leverage on steep terrain. I liked it for lower angle terrain though. Perhaps if I went duck it might not feel so different since my ankles are closer together with a duck stance and that leverage might still be there. I'll try to dial the location first to see where I actually should be, then see if 22" works for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Didn't get to ride the split this weekend - conditions suuuucked in Tahoe. But I did remeasure accurately. With my stance at 21.5", I was 0.5" back of the center of the sidecut. Moving my back foot back one insert to 22.5" would put me to the 1" back of the center of the sidecut.

Rode the solid inbounds @ Squaw in the wet mank and really was feeling that with a duck stance +18, -3, I could go wider than my 21.5" but that was on pretty mellow terrain. I will have to try on some steeper terrain first. Just putting my feet in the split at 22.5" felt pretty big.

Really hoping that Karakorum can revise the ride mode base plates to provide some intermediary adjustment capability.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:52 pm 
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tiltedworld wrote:
Didn't get to ride the split this weekend - conditions suuuucked in Tahoe. But I did remeasure accurately. With my stance at 21.5", I was 0.5" back of the center of the sidecut. Moving my back foot back one insert to 22.5" would put me to the 1" back of the center of the sidecut.

Rode the solid inbounds @ Squaw in the wet mank and really was feeling that with a duck stance +18, -3, I could go wider than my 21.5" but that was on pretty mellow terrain. I will have to try on some steeper terrain first. Just putting my feet in the split at 22.5" felt pretty big.

Really hoping that Karakorum can revise the ride mode base plates to provide some intermediary adjustment capability.


Finally...some consistent spring conditions at Alpine Meadows to test. I rode my solid and my WS back to back changing between the 21.5" wide 0.5" back of center of the sidecut (correctly measured this time) and 22.5" wide, 1" back of sidecut. Took the same runs and a mix of fast, spring conditions ranging from hardpack, to crust to corn to slush. The verdict is that the board was much more fun and the accurate measurement made a huuuge difference. :thumpsup: It really helped to be able to do multiple runs in fast back-to-back manner to feel the differences.

Among the two positions, the board turned best at 1" back of sidecut. At 0.5" back, the hesitation to initiate was virtually gone and the only thing I didn't like was the feeling that the tail was hanging up ever so slightly on the finish of the turn. This made me feel uneasy that in places where I know I wouldn't want to fall I wouldn't be comfortable, but I probably could adjust to over time. At 1" back, though, the turn itself was Puuuuurfect and I was really beginning to enjoy the board. The downside was that even with the new duck stance I've been riding, 22.5" was too wide once on anything with a little steepness to it. I simply lost too much leverage and control of the board on the steeps going that wide. I tested 22" wide on my solid and this seems to be a good compromise to be a little wider with a duck stance and not lose too much leverage.

This is both good and bad... GOOD that I've figured out how to ride this board best for me, but BAD that the Karakoram system as it stands today does not offer me the flexibility to put my stance where it "needs" to be. As much as I like the system for its touring performance and slick interface, I might have to switch to a Spark binding or something else until the ride mode base plates have adjustment built in.

So I am bittersweet happy that I have found my happy place with the ST and really rode it well for the first time all season. :clap: I'll probably sell my Karakoram's either way next season, (not the clips, they rock) because if there are changes made I really do want the Superlights, but if not I'll go another direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Titleworld: What is limiting about the K system? Does it limit stance width options, foot angles, both, something else?

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:48 pm 
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Taylor wrote:
Titleworld: What is limiting about the K system? Does it limit stance width options, foot angles, both, something else?


Both sorta, but really just one limitation.

The sorta/not really limitation is that the ride mode brackets are designed for left and right feet for a ducked stance. All this really means is that if you ride duck more than 5 degrees on your back foot, fine no changes. If you ride with a positive degree on your back foot more than 5 degrees, you need to tell them when you order if you're reg/goofy and than you want two of the same ride mode interfaces. This will limit you to -5 on the duck side, but allows for 25 degrees positive on the back foot as well. I was riding at +5 on the rear until earlier this year, but started riding duck again at -5 so I'm still fine but I ordered two of the same ride modes.

See not really a limitation, just something to be mindful of when buying them.

The real limitation is that you are limited in your widths to your insert pattern. Each stance change forward or backward moves you an inch. You may not be able to get your preferred stance width and even if you can, it may not be in the ideal setback for your particular board (like me). You can see this in their ride mode picture. The only real adjustment to it is rotational for angle.

Image

Really this whole thread now boils down to two things: 1) I did not understand that the insert pattern was setback from the sidecut center instead of the board length and 2) Now that I have the stance setback dialed, I can't get my preferred width without those ride modes being redesigned.

The bindings themselves are awesome. They tour great, NO strap breakage issues and are SOLID on the ride down. A great engineered product. I'm sure the brothers will come up with a solution to this problem, but until they do I think I will need to be on a different binding.

At least I learned something in the process and it really wasn't the sidecut length at all, but the relation of the inserts to the sidecut that was throwing me off so much. In retrospect I should have just done what I did this weekend from the beginning instead of trying to set up during backcountry runs. Thanks to everyone that helped me get my head around this board, you all ROCK :headbang:


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:45 am 
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I didn't read all post but I get the jist of this thread. Something that I didn't see mentioned and should be it the advent of variable sidecut radiuses or VSR for discussion sakes. Most of the VSR boards that I have been on are a dual radi. My current favorite alpine set up has a 14m nose or shovel and a 24m tail works tremendously well. Recently we have been testing Tri radius boards intened for the World Cup race market. 14/20/17 (all radi listed starting from the nose and moving to tail) was the starting point and there have been many variations after that that have worked great. The radi are blended so it is not a hard break from one radi to the next, it is a smooth increasing or decreasing transition. This technology is now being implemented into freeride/all mtn/powder shapes that Donek Snowboards has been prototyping and preparing for the splitboard market. The thinking is work smarter not harder. Single radi boards are ancient technology, yeah they work but not efficiently. Have the machine do the work and enjoy the ride more. Stay tuned!


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:20 am 
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Tilted: OK, so if you are at:

22.5" width and 1 " (2.54 cm) back, you could make the following change: Move the front foot back 1", that would get you here:

21.5" width, and 1.5" (3.8 cm) back. This stance should give you excellent performance on the ST, and allow you to run the width you prefer.

Snowman:

"Single radi boards are ancient technology, yeah they work but not efficiently. Have the machine do the work and enjoy the ride more. Stay tuned!"

Multiple radius sidecuts are nothing new, progressive, quadratic, elliptical, have all been used and are currently used by various manufacturers. Also, what works for carving, either on the race course, or free carving on groomers is entirely different from what will work optimally in highly variable snow conditions in the backcountry. Personally, I would not want a board with a shorter radius towards the nose for my riding, as this creates a quicker turn entry and also loads up the nose of the board considerably-this is exactly the opposite of what one wants on the steeps (as an example). On the steeps the worst possible fall occurs when the rider goes "over the bars", and a board which wants to enter the turn very quickly is hard to control in this respect. For steep terrain one wants a board that will enter the turn gently, and then provide good edge hold through the middle and end of the turn. Then there is pure powder riding, where skiers have found that sidecut is not even needed, hence reverse/reverse style boards. In the backcountry people use a lot of different riding techniques, besides carving, often sliding into turns, slarving, smearing, etc.
Any discussion on board design for the backcountry (sidecut, taper angle, camber/rocker profile, flex pattern) needs to take into account the different techniques used in high performance backcountry freeriding.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:32 pm 
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barrows wrote:
Tilted: OK, so if you are at:

22.5" width and 1 " (2.54 cm) back, you could make the following change: Move the front foot back 1", that would get you here:

21.5" width, and 1.5" (3.8 cm) back. This stance should give you excellent performance on the ST, and allow you to run the width you prefer.


Yep, I know that will work. But with the sidecut setback versus measuring from the center of the board, the difference on the nose length is likely going to get too long for anything but deep days. I would totally ride that stance when its deep, but I'm not sure I could pressure the nose enough on firm snow. We'll see, I'm just stoked to be stoked on the board finally. :mrgreen: I'll deal with the binding choice next season.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Location: Colorado
barrows wrote:
Tilted: OK, so if you are at:

22.5" width and 1 " (2.54 cm) back, you could make the following change: Move the front foot back 1", that would get you here:

21.5" width, and 1.5" (3.8 cm) back. This stance should give you excellent performance on the ST, and allow you to run the width you prefer.

Snowman:

"Single radi boards are ancient technology, yeah they work but not efficiently. Have the machine do the work and enjoy the ride more. Stay tuned!"

Multiple radius sidecuts are nothing new, progressive, quadratic, elliptical, have all been used and are currently used by various manufacturers. Also, what works for carving, either on the race course, or free carving on groomers is entirely different from what will work optimally in highly variable snow conditions in the backcountry. Personally, I would not want a board with a shorter radius towards the nose for my riding, as this creates a quicker turn entry and also loads up the nose of the board considerably-this is exactly the opposite of what one wants on the steeps (as an example). On the steeps the worst possible fall occurs when the rider goes "over the bars", and a board which wants to enter the turn very quickly is hard to control in this respect. For steep terrain one wants a board that will enter the turn gently, and then provide good edge hold through the middle and end of the turn. Then there is pure powder riding, where skiers have found that sidecut is not even needed, hence reverse/reverse style boards. In the backcountry people use a lot of different riding techniques, besides carving, often sliding into turns, slarving, smearing, etc.
Any discussion on board design for the backcountry (sidecut, taper angle, camber/rocker profile, flex pattern) needs to take into account the different techniques used in high performance backcountry freeriding.


Boo Hoo, your a party pooper ain't ya? Gonna tell how bad you rip next?


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm 
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"Boo Hoo, your a party pooper ain't ya? Gonna tell how bad you rip next?"

Huh? I was just contributing in an intelligent way to the discussion here on sidecut, and pointing out that multiple/variable sidecut radii are nothing new.
I would love to hear any specific details you might have on how Donek's variable radius approaches translate to board performance in the backcountry.

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Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:26 am 
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It's dumpin balls, off to the snow zone. I get back to you on that. Just seem you got er all figured out. You know what you want you know what you like. For me, its been a very big year of embracing the new and out with the old. This shape is in a whole new league, versatility across a spectrum of riding conditions that is untouchable. Works for me!


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