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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:45 am 
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I think torsional stiffness may play a larger role in turn initiation at slow speeds than the sidecut.

I gauge that based on riding the voile mountain gun 71. That board had a 9? radius but was way stiff. Felt harder to turn at slower speeds than my ST 66 or the TB 72.

but i've found that if you turn at slow speed on a large radius board, by leaning and getting on edge, the board will stay on edge and track - then you get that "I can't adjust or change direction or get of this edge and side slip and I'm headed for that tree". :D


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:55 pm 
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powderjunkie wrote:
I think torsional stiffness may play a larger role in turn initiation at slow speeds than the sidecut.

but i've found that if you turn at slow speed on a large radius board, by leaning and getting on edge, the board will stay on edge and track - then you get that "I can't adjust or change direction or get off this edge and side slip and I'm headed for that tree". :D


Yep, that's the feeling... Perhaps as it loosens up a bit it will help too, I have 5 days on it so far. Maybe I should bring it to the resort again and flog it like a thoroughbred on groomers.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:20 pm 
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For what it is worth, I am on the same page as those who say you are too far forward. I ride boards in the 180-190 range with heaps of rocker, you'd think a bit forward or back would not make a big difference, but even on these boards if I move an inch farther up, the boards get significanty more sluggish at low to medium speeds. I am talking about in pow to slush, any snow that has depth in it, not hardpack. Same story with an old Voile 181 that I had when they were red and white, rode pretty stiff till you gat back a bit of center.

10 meters is still a pretty quick turning sidecut, that is not the problem unless you are not pushing the camber out of the board, neither flex nor sidecut alone can really define how a board starts a turn on a frim surface. It is the curve that they make together (with torsion) that defines how you enter a turn etc. try carry more beer in your pack. :guinness:


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Scooby's right, more beer in the pack!

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Scooby2 wrote:
try carry more beer in your pack. :guinness:

Or as mtnrider says, "put a little chub into it!" :)

Good discussion here. I like to geek out on this stuff as much as anyone but even my head hurts now! Tilted, I was gonna say you may want to consider the guy's offer to trade for the Jones. The 161 won't have any stance width issues, and it is IMO a great board. Like you, I have not been a huge fan of big taper. My Burton had about 6mm, which I liked. The Jones has like 2mm or something tiny, but I guess because of the shape/rocker/flex it is still easy to maneuver at slower speeds. BTW, UTAH the Jones does ride great in pow.

But it sounds like you like a *really* stiff board... in which case, sticking with the ST and playing with the stance may be the way to go. Hey, maybe we can swap boards for a day! :) Always thought the ST would be an interesting board to try. Though I general prefer a little more flex. And yes I have been known to ride some steep shit barrows on my noodly old Burton, and even prefer stiff highbacks, OMG!! :) YMMV.

One question for the spec geeks. Where exactly is the "stance setback" measured from? Center of the board? Center of the sidecut? Center of the running length?? And does this mean that if you drew a line from the center of the front insert pack, to the center of the back insert pack, then the middle of that line would be at the specified setback compared to the aforementioned "center"?

I generally just put the bindings on and move them around till it feels good. When setting up a new board, I usually start with my stance on my existing board as a reference, unless the new board shape is way different.

I remember SanFrantastico had a Never Summer that he hated, until one trip when we went to Shasta, and the board suddenly came alive on the way out when we were wearing our heavy overnight packs. Put some chub into it! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:50 pm 
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jimw wrote:
One question for the spec geeks. Where exactly is the "stance setback" measured from? Center of the board? Center of the sidecut? Center of the running length?? And does this mean that if you drew a line from the center of the front insert pack, to the center of the back insert pack, then the middle of that line would be at the specified setback compared to the aforementioned "center"?


This is an excellent god damn question. Every manufacturer seems to measure things differently and they do not specify HOW they did so. I am a nerd and I wish that there was at least more of a standard way of measuring various things or at best they provided detailed descriptions and or diagrams of what they did to come to their measurements! Oh well in the end it's so subjective you just gotta ride it!


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:15 pm 
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I reference setback this way:

Measure the edge contact points of the board and mark (against a straight edge, like a door jamb). Measure the edge length of the board from my marks, and divide by two to find the center of the edge length (not necessarily the waist, as taper and other non symmetric sidecuts will effect waist location). Mark the center of the sidecut on the board, then measure my setback from this center mark. I ride most boards at 4-5 cm back from this point. My Storm rides great at 4 cm back, really well balanced in all snow conditions. I tend to ride cambered boards with less taper even farther back to get more nose lift in powder, but taper and rocker have changed the setback for me (for the better).
jimw, yes YMMV for sure, nothing wrong with that!

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:54 am 
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Most manufacturers "measure" their set-back in relation to the board length, not in relation to the sidecut location. Some builders retard or setback their sidecut, but the setback is usually center of the deck and setback from center (of the board).

Don't forget that snowboard manufacturers have been lying on their specs (fudging the numbers). For years they have used the most market acceptable specifications. An example is for years people wanted a 159cm and a 160cm was too long for consumers to buy. Easy fix is to change the specified length to a 159! A lot of the 166cm boards that were real popular morphed into 163cm, which is a more marketable size. Effective Edge specs (one of the most important ride characteristics) are often not accurate and I have personally measure several boards and they are not within the specifications.

In my opinion the most effective way to measure sidecut is by sidecut depth, not necessarily the radius of the sidecut (or all that quadratic BS). The depth of the sidecut (measured by standing up the board on its edge and measuring the gap created) will give you a better idea of how aggressive the sidecut will be. A 9m sidecut on a 170 will have a dramatically different ride than a 9m sidecut on a 155cm, due to this change in depth.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:48 am 
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jimw wrote:
Good discussion here. I like to geek out on this stuff as much as anyone but even my head hurts now! Tilted, I was gonna say you may want to consider the guy's offer to trade for the Jones. The 161 won't have any stance width issues, and it is IMO a great board. Like you, I have not been a huge fan of big taper. My Burton had about 6mm, which I liked. The Jones has like 2mm or something tiny, but I guess because of the shape/rocker/flex it is still easy to maneuver at slower speeds. BTW, UTAH the Jones does ride great in pow.

But it sounds like you like a *really* stiff board... in which case, sticking with the ST and playing with the stance may be the way to go. Hey, maybe we can swap boards for a day! :) Always thought the ST would be an interesting board to try. Though I general prefer a little more flex. And yes I have been known to ride some steep shit barrows on my noodly old Burton, and even prefer stiff highbacks, OMG!! :) YMMV.


I'd love to swap for a run, if just to get a feel for the different boards. Lemme know next time you're in Tahoe. I'm headed to Alpine (have some tix I need to use) and plan on makng a lap out to Little AK this weekend. I hope to make some events next year and would definitely want to demo to "feel out" the different boards. I do like the stiff boards, but that is starting to change with riding some nose or early rise rocker. Between this thread, Tom B. saying the stance setback is measured from the sidecut, not board length, and seeing BGnight's recent TR's and videos, I know I am too far forward. Playing with the stance location will most likely make the difference. I'm hoping next year's K bindings will allow for some intermediary width adjustment as well. Every board has a slightly different sweet spot. I know on my solid, I can "feel" the difference in just a tiny 1/4" move forward and back. One inch for me is HUGE in changing the characteristics on the board. The taper is minimal still on the ST at 4mm and similar to my solid at 2mm. I think like you said, keeping taper <10mm would probably keep me happy on most boards. Oh and also OMG stiff highbacks. :lol:

jimw wrote:
One question for the spec geeks. Where exactly is the "stance setback" measured from? Center of the board? Center of the sidecut? Center of the running length?? And does this mean that if you drew a line from the center of the front insert pack, to the center of the back insert pack, then the middle of that line would be at the specified setback compared to the aforementioned "center"?

I generally just put the bindings on and move them around till it feels good. When setting up a new board, I usually start with my stance on my existing board as a reference, unless the new board shape is way different.


I always had measured from the board length and determined my starting point by subtracting my stance from the overall board length to determine my fore/aft points (1" & 2" back from center of board length for regular riding/deep powder). Barrow's method for determining setback in relation to the sidecut makes complete sense to me, especially with how rocker changes the contact points on the boards now.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:53 pm 
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Update:

Got the chance to take the ST out for another spin this weekend, this time heading out to the Alpine Meadows slackcountry on Saturday. Prior to going out, I moved the bindings back one insert (1") based on our discussion here. I did not have time the evening before to actually measure the sidecut, but figured this was a good start.

Took a few inbounds runs to get warmed up and feel the board out a little more, which felt a little better on groomers but not perfect yet. I was sharing the child-watching duties with my wife and drew the afternoon straw, which kind of sucked because some weather moved in later in the day. The morning was clear and colder, but warmed up a bit midday. By the time I made my way out to Little AK, the cloud deck was back in and was already at the ridge line and getting worse. From Grouse Rock I couldn't even see Little AK, let alone Twin Peaks. So I opted to drop from Grouse since I was by myself.

The snow off Grouse was heavy powder about a foot deep with a thin breakable crust that most likely formed from the in/out sunshine earlier in the day and a quick refreeze on top when the cold/clouds returned. This made the snow slightly grabby at times, so still not great for evaluating.

However, the board did feel significantly better in low speed turns and a lot less unnatural feeling on the steeps. The board now finishes the turns well and from midway through the end of the turn feels very good. It's still a bit slow to initiate, even when weighting my front. Actually its not really the initiation, more like the first 1/3 of the turn that feels sluggish to me.

That evening I quickly measured things up with just an eyeball for measuring the sidecut. I'd like to do this more thoroughly when I don't need to split my attention with a 3yo :lol:

Using Barrows method and measuring from the back of the nose rocker contact point to the front of the tail contact point got me to the center of the sidecut. I measured from there to the center of my front binding to see where I was in relation to the sidecut. I figured the number should be 1/2 my stance width (10.75") to be centered on the sidecut. If it were more, then I was still ahead of where Tom said the board should be ridden - and less meaning I was behind center of the sidecut and OK (and would be scratching my head more since it still didn't feel "right" yet). This is where the 3yo got to be a bit unruly and I rushed and eyeballed the measurement from the front binding to the sidecut center. From the quick measurement, it appears that I am close to center on the sidecut, perhaps 1/2" back at most. Close enough that I was annoyed at the tantrum my daughter was throwing and put the board down for the evening. I will have to measure more accurately in 2 weeks when I'm back in Tahoe. If I move one more insert pack back that would get me to ~1.5" back and actually pretty close to Barrow's preferred setback (3.75cm). However, since the sidecut is setback from the board length, the nose was starting to feel on the long end of normal for me and I wonder how one insert back will feel. From BGnight's vids and knowing he's on a similar stance, it appears he's got the board set up one insert pack further back, but since he's on Voile pucks, he has a little more longitudinal play than I have with the Karakoram's so it could be different.

The verdict is still out, but I feel like I am getting closer now. Hopefully the Karakoram Superlights will have some incremental adjustment between the insert packs so I can dial it in a bit more if 1.5" proves to be too much. Sometimes I really wish I lived/worked closer to Tahoe so I could be out more often.

Sunday was 40 degree at 9am so I left the split and rode the solid on some groomers and the park at Squaw.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:25 am 
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"Using Barrows method and measuring from the back of the nose rocker contact point to the front of the tail contact point got me to the center of the sidecut"

Sorry Tilted, I guess my post was not quite clear enough-this is not how I measure the edge length and determine sidecut center.
I find the center of the sidecut (or effective edge length) disregarding rocker or camber. The reason for this, is that when a board is fully on edge, as it is in a steep terrain turn, the entire effective edge contacts the snow.
I find the contact points of the sidecut by placing the edge (not the base)against a straight edge (door jamb, or straight table, etc) and mark them. Than I measure the effective edge length from the marks, divide by two to find the center of the sidecut (this is not necessarily the waist, as boards may have taper, and/or rotated, progressive, quadratic, or elliptical sidecuts). I mark the center of the sidecut along the center line of the board, and then use this point as the reference for setback.
The setback is the distance between the center of the stance and the sidecut center.
Example: If one's stance width is 21", the midpoint of the stance is at 10.5" back from the center of the front binding along the center of the board. The offset from that 10.5" point and the sidecut center mark is the setback. It is the relation of the center of the stance, to the center of the edge length.

Note: for good control in really steep and difficult terrain, you want the board to initiate gently and somewhat slowly-otherwise you risk the nose grabbing too quickly, sending the rider over the nose in a dangerous flipping fall.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:29 am 
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Barrows,

That is how I measured, but I measured the point where the sidecut begins to curve in from the unflexed rocker section in the nose. The rocker section is a good 2" long where it is flat to the straight edge. If I incorporated that into the measurements and measured from the front of that section, that would effectively move the center of my sidecut measurement back approx another inch (half of the rocker length), and my current position would then be ~ .5" forward of the center instead of ~.5" back of center? Does that sound correct? :scratch:

This would "seem" to make more sense based on how I feel the board performing. Still don't know if the nose will feel overly long another inch back, but then moving back another 1" insert would get me to .5" back of the sidecut?

I posted this in another thread, but you can see the length of that contact section.

Image

I've never been so confused in setting up a board. :scratch: Doesn't help that I'm only getting to ride about every other week through most of the season.

By slow in the 1/3, it now feels like it turns in - pauses - then pulls through the turn sidecut. This could still largely be part of the position adjustments I'm still working through.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:48 am 
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Like I said-disregard the rocker. Measure the effective edge length disregarding any effects of rocker/camber or tip and tail turn up. Find the edge contact points by placing the edge of the board (not the base) against a straight edge (door jamb works well). Base all of your measurements referencing the effective edge length-not contact points along the base.

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http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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