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Splitboard.com Forums • View topic - Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Barrows is right on the money.

Be aggressive... B E aggresive! :disco:

That board wants to go fast, get it up to speed and it will nimble up.
I also like to be a little more forward on burly snowboards, maybe move your stance up or just your front foot.
You are probably a little behind the "sweet spot" on the board.

+1 on a generous de-tune, tip and tail till you are more comfortable on it.

I think once you get it on some fast spring snow you will love the 10m sidecut.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:26 pm 
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I definitely have all those turns in my repertoire - smooth, fast linked pivot/smears are among my favorite on super steep terrain. I guess the feeling I get is that once I am already most of the way through the turn, the board still wants to continue downhill before finishing across the fall line, whereas I am more used to having the board turn to the fall line more quickly. Which is why I narrowed the difference down to the radius

Winterstick's are custom built, I had them add nose rocker only. My offset is also 25mm back instead of 30mm. The rocker does help keep the tip up, but its pretty subtle. I have always ridden ~1" back of board center, it allows me to ride the front of the board more and engage more edge. I've never been a fan of riding a centered stance and can ride switch no problem. Most freeride boards are set up with 20-30mm of setback, so I'm confused as to why think 50mm is serious backseat driving. I don't have washout problems with any board and I am not looking for it to washout :scratch:

My 21.5" stance is literally all the way forward on this, so it's not like I am putting myself at the end of the stance range. If anything, I would be more centered over the insert pack. This is set up 1" back of center.

Image

I'm not saying it is the best solution, just thinking it is another option for me to try in determining if this sidecut is truly too long for my style.

The extra length in the sidecut definitely helps in steep edge contact. You have more even pressure across the entire length of the edge. On a short sidecut you simply have to bend the board further to get the same contact edge, leading to overpressure when going over any hard snow variations. Then boiiing, you've lost the edge...and some control.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:35 pm 
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PedroDelfuego wrote:
Barrows is right on the money.

Be aggressive... B E aggresive! :disco:

That board wants to go fast, get it up to speed and it will nimble up.
I also like to be a little more forward on burly snowboards, maybe move your stance up or just your front foot.
You are probably a little behind the "sweet spot" on the board.

+1 on a generous de-tune, tip and tail till you are more comfortable on it.

I think once you get it on some fast spring snow you will love the 10m sidecut.


I don't disagree, it is nimble as hell - at speed. But on the super steeps you are not getting the board up to serious speed, places where you are trying to control your fall line speed. On a >45 degree slope you just aren't opening the board up to where the baord feels nimble.

If anything I feel like I am ahead of the sweet spot, due to the feeling mid short-radius turn of the board wanting to continue downhill instead of finish across the fall line. :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Looking at the photo I would agree that, if anything you are ahead of the sweet spot.

I dont think the sidecut radius is that much more radical than your used to and shouldn't really be messing you up too much. Maybe its just stance location.

And de-tune for sure, a lot of people miss this and it makes boards grabby as hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:58 pm 
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From that picture it looks like you are really forward on the board. If the inserts are set up for a 2.5 cm back stance, it appears that you are forward of that?
There is likely a good reason for the stock ST to be set up with a 3.0 cm back stance, and I would never ride a directional, tapered, board forward of the recommended position (farther back, yes). I would definately mount up farther back. When the stance is so far forward it can be difficult to properly weight the tail for edging power acoss the fall line.

"I guess the feeling I get is that once I am already most of the way through the turn, the board still wants to continue downhill before finishing across the fall line, whereas I am more used to having the board turn to the fall line more quickly."

Well, this sounds like a good thing to me. Deep sidecut boards tend to want to finish the turn so hard, all the way across the fall line, that it can be really hard to turn back into the fall line (hard to release the tail). I find boards with less sidecut (and taper) much easier to ride in the steeps in this respect, as one can easily release from the turn without a hard finish to the turn when one wants to. I can always make the board finish hard across the falline when I want it to by strong edging.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Things to remember,

One, the board is truly directional and is designed to be ridden center or just back of center of the sidecut not the length of the board. The narrowest part of the board is set back do to the taper so you want to be center or back of there.

As far as turns go. You need to weight your front foot while initiation of your turn is happening. On the ST you can lean forward much more than you are use too to start your turn and finish your turn with less weight on the back leg. This will make your board more reactive to what turn you want to do, then depending on how tight you want to turn you have to put energy into your board by pushing on(down weighting) it during your turn.

As far as steeps, straighter sidecuts are more effective when it is harder snow. A straighter sidecut allows your edge sets to happen easier do to not having to bend your board as far to get your edge to get contact on the snow. Thus you will have more energy to get to your next turn and edge set.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
tiltedworld wrote:
But on the super steeps you are not getting the board up to serious speed, places where you are trying to control your fall line speed. On a >45 degree slope you just aren't opening the board up to where the baord feels nimble.


The edge and sidecut are used in a different way during skidded steeper slope turns and a bigger sidecut is very helpful. Speed is not so relevant on steeper terrain for turning a bigger sidecut board tight because you are not very dependent on your sidecut to determine your turn radius during a skidded turn. The bigger sidecut does allow much greater control during a skidded turn though and makes the board less likely to lock into an unwanted turn (less hooky).

Once you come around and the board loads up, as TB mentions (thanks for posting), the board does not need to bend as far in the middle to get full edge contact. That allows quicker, more precise edge control (translates directly to speed control). The bigger sidecut takes edge pressure off the nose and tail and distributes in more evenly along the full edge and between your feet.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:57 pm 
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Tom Burt wrote:
Things to remember,

One, the board is truly directional and is designed to be ridden center or just back of center of the sidecut not the length of the board. The narrowest part of the board is set back do to the taper so you want to be center or back of there.

As far as turns go. You need to weight your front foot while initiation of your turn is happening. On the ST you can lean forward much more than you are use too to start your turn and finish your turn with less weight on the back leg. This will make your board more reactive to what turn you want to do, then depending on how tight you want to turn you have to put energy into your board by pushing on(down weighting) it during your turn.

As far as steeps, straighter sidecuts are more effective when it is harder snow. A straighter sidecut allows your edge sets to happen easier do to not having to bend your board as far to get your edge to get contact on the snow. Thus you will have more energy to get to your next turn and edge set.

Tom


Thanks for chiming in Tom :bow: :thumpsup:

It seems between Barrows, Pedro, Buell and now yourself, you're all in agreement that I have set the board up too far forward.

Your comment to have the stance centered or back of center of the sidecut and not back of the center of the board length suggests that the bindings are too far forward. I suppose that is why Dan (Dendrologic) didn't want to push the inserts too far forward when we were moving the inserts to get my stance correct with the Karakoram bindings. I will move the stance one insert pack backwards, which looks like it would be behind the center of the sidecut. I think I set it up back of center of the board, not the sidecut, which makes sense as to why I feel "ahead" of the turn. I'll confirm when I'm back in Tahoe next week.

I will try your technique for initiating the turns, it is very likely I am not used to pressing the of the board actively and aggressively enough on initiation. I think this might be the root of my discontent with the board and will work on it.

I totally get why edge hold with a larger radius is better on steeps, its exactly what I wanted something bigger than the 8.1 meters on my solid. :guinness:


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:20 pm 
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ST's and board like this have a lot of snap to them. If you load the tail with energy it will feel like it shoots you out of the turn and into the next turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Interesting discussion - thanks to the posters!

And man - the ST looks awesome! I would love to try one out :D

Cheers
Ivo


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:48 am 
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Tom Burt wrote:
As far as turns go. You need to weight your front foot while initiation of your turn is happening. On the ST you can lean forward much more than you are use too to start your turn and finish your turn with less weight on the back leg.Tom

:thumbsup: +1 Also key to riding longboards while still enjoying the trees and narrows


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:42 am 
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First off, I'm with Utah when it comes to being picky about equipment. Reading and/or discussing board specs/differences etc. bore me. In addition, my riding does not compare to the likes of barrows, titled, or utah. Tom Burt....I can take him. Seriously, my comments below are anecdotal as I'm far from schooled in this shit.

Powderjunkie has a solid ST and warned me that he found his ST was difficult to initiate at slow speeds as well. He blames it on the large radius. I decided to jump ship on the Solution 68 because of their issues and chose the ST 66 split anyways.

I've ridden it for a full resort day and 10 or so days in the backcountry and have not found it hard to turn. I'm 10-15 lbs heavier than PJ so I'm thinking that may have something to do with it. What I really love is how damp it is. I can charge with confidence that I'm not going to get bucked in chunder, debris, ice chunks or whatever. It floats and turns in powder WAY better than my Mojo 171. I also asked for nose rocker and I think it has something to do with my enjoyment of powder riding.

Tilted--I'm curious why you asked them to make it stiffer than normal? STs are known for being solid and stiff to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidecut: how it affects board ride characteristics
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:12 am 
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Ecobrad wrote:
First off, I'm with Utah when it comes to being picky about equipment. Reading and/or discussing board specs/differences etc. bore me. In addition, my riding does not compare to the likes of barrows, titled, or utah. Tom Burt....I can take him. Seriously, my comments below are anecdotal as I'm far from schooled in this shit.

Powderjunkie has a solid ST and warned me that he found his ST was difficult to initiate at slow speeds as well. He blames it on the large radius. I decided to jump ship on the Solution 68 because of their issues and chose the ST 66 split anyways.

I've ridden it for a full resort day and 10 or so days in the backcountry and have not found it hard to turn. I'm 10-15 lbs heavier than PJ so I'm thinking that may have something to do with it. What I really love is how damp it is. I can charge with confidence that I'm not going to get bucked in chunder, debris, ice chunks or whatever. It floats and turns in powder WAY better than my Mojo 171. I also asked for nose rocker and I think it has something to do with my enjoyment of powder riding.

Tilted--I'm curious why you asked them to make it stiffer than normal? STs are known for being solid and stiff to begin with.


I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way, but I'm feeling a lot better now about the potential of learning to adjust to it now with some stance location adjustments and some minor technique adjustments. I do like how damp it is too.

I did order it a smidge stiffer than normal because I always have ridden stiff boards and enjoyed riding a board a bit longer than my size would suggest. I'm a smaller, more compact and powerfully built guy 5'6, 170 and I've always overpowered softer boards when riding hard. It takes me a long time to find a design that met my flex preferences as boards have gotten softer and softer over the years. I do like to spin at times, but my boards aren't typically conducive to buttering :lol: I ride my solids at 157-158 for short boards and 160-163 for powder. My absolute favorite board was the original 00-01 Burton Dragon which was so stiff, it didn't sell well and was significantly softer in the two following years it was made. A close second is the 06-07 Option Signature which is my current solid and unbelievably bomber in construction considering I have well over 100 days on it. I can tell you though that the Signature, and even my 05 Malolo (also with over 100 days) are still stiffer in comparison to the ST, which isn't even really broken in yet. By hand-flexing, the flex seems perfect to me for what I want it to do. Which is why, like Powderjunkie, I still believe it has to due somewhat with the larger radius sidecut.

Location of the stance in relation to the sidecut versus in relation to the board length (how I always did it in the past) should help a lot.


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