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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:41 pm
Posts: 3
In icy conditions rocker is a hindrance. Just got a Lib Tech Travis Rice split. I think magna traction is the best thing to happen to a snowboard since highback bindings and definitely helps the rocker on icy steeps.


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:42 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:06 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Mt Shasta
One of my regular bc partners just got a Lib Tech with basically a flat (maybe slight camber) middle and slight early rise w magne traction: he rocks that board hands down compared to the Storm R. I haven't ridden it but can't wait. Cool graphics too.


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:19 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:06 am
Posts: 69
Location: Norway
This thread is turning out to be really interesting. Thanks for all the comments.

I've just been reading up on taper and it all makes sense and I just read up on Tom Burt's review of his board. Sounds like a great board. I see that he only has 4mm of taper on his board. Doesn't sound like a lot to be honest. Does it really make that much of a difference to none. You mention up to 10mm, Barrows. That sounds like it would make more of a difference. Does anyone know where the limit would be for a good board for steeps. I think Tom knows what he's doing ;), so I'm guessing 4 probably is optimal. Shame it doesn't come in a wide.

Hey, Shasta what is the model of board that your mate is riding? The Lib Tech? Is it a split or a normal board?

And does magna traction really make a difference? (I think I might start another thread to get people's feedback on that.) I hope it does.....would be great peace of mind when things get a little tricky.

BGnight/Barrows: I think you both said you had the Tom Burt. What do you think of it compared to the other boards in your quiver...? Is it good as a one quiver board? Having to always have to travel to the mountains (whether for a season or a weekend) restricts me on the baggage allowance, so I always really need a one quiver board.

Buell: so you went a bit longer on your board to compensate for the early rise. An extra 4cm. So if I got a board with early rise, it would be silly to go shorter than I already ride (168) and get early rise. Let's say I went down to 164 and go early rise. I would in theory have the effective edge of a 160 or 162. So, probably best to stick with 168, especially after the good comments about stability and centre of gravity for a taller guy.....

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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1504
Location: Colorado
I have a Tom Burt solid, which is my main solid board. Now I only ride in a resort maybe 4 or 5 days a season, and the rest of the time I am on a split. For a guy your size, you could easily ride the Tom Burt as a quiver of one, but you would probably want it a little wider. Remember, that with an 11 m sidecut, the board is narrower (at the foot positions) than a board with the same waist and an 9.5 m sidecut.
The TB rides great in powder, steeps, ice, etc. It is a traditional camber board, but has low camber. The shallow sidecut helps it, as this keeps the board from being too hooky in the steeps, and the taper helps as well, allowing one to break turns from carves, into skids, and back into carves again. It does not allow the super fun riding style that a rocker board allows though. With the Storm R, I can pivot, smear, and skid at will, at any speed, without worry as to catching edges-this allows for super fun riding at speed in good snow, and gives one tons of extra confidence as you know you can dump speed really easily at any time, in any situation, without needing the space to turn a conventional board would need.
A Tom Burt split, a little wider for you, with a moderate early rise tip, would probably be an ideal quiver of one to deal with everything from blower pow, to firm steeps.

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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:06 am
Posts: 69
Location: Norway
As regards taper.... I was just looking at the Venture boards Zephyr and Storm and they have quite a bit more taper at 5.8 and 8 respectively. That sounds like that would have more of a noticeable impact than 4mm that the Tom Burt has. My Prior Backcountry has 4mm taper. I'm thinking... without compromising the steep performance.....could I go a little higher than 4mm to get a bit more manoeuvarability.....I'm thinking as a one quiver board and how I like the trees too ;)

What is the theory behind more taper being bad for icy conditions out of interest? Anyone know?

Barrows: I remember you mentioning that you had a Prior Backcountry. Would love to hear your thoughts on it compared to the Tom Burt as a one quiver for what I'm looking for....?

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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1504
Location: Colorado
When a board has too much taper, it loses edge grip in the tail. One needs edge grip as one rides across the fall line finishing a turn hard on a steep, hard slope. I have had no problems with taper up to 10 mm though, and figure anything around 4-10 mm is fine. I would probably sketch out on high taper pow boards like the Fish, Kyber, and Euphoria though.
In Ventures line up, I would expect an approriately sized Zephyr would likely perform better as a dedicated mountaineering board, a little less nose, a little less taper, and a little less set back.
I have a Prior Backcountry 168 split. It is softer, and has more camber, than the Tom Burt (I am ~170 lbs). I prefer the ride quality of the Tom Burt. If the Prior was a little stiffer they would probably be pretty close, the next size up in a backcountry might be really close in performance to the TB, as Prior increases stiffness with length. I really like my Venture best, stiffer, and rocker, which I like. The Storm R suits 85 % of my riding to a "T". As I generally try to ride good snow as much as possible, and I do not expect any problems on corn with it. I am only suspicious about its ice performance-I have already been on steep windboard, and it held an edge fine on that.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:06 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Mt Shasta
The LibTech is a factory split but did not come with inserts/holes for Voile (or any) binding mounts which was really strange. He sent it off for the inserts, they did a nice job for $150.

He swears by the magne traction in hard conditions but he is a more intermediate rider: I'd have to try it myself before I rely on his observations. I hope to talk him into a ride soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:44 pm
Posts: 414
Location: Cupertino, CA
I completely agree with Barrows on the taper. In fact it has been my biggest complaint about the Fish @ 30mm taper and then later the Malolo @ 20mm of taper. The Malolo is my powder board I am learning to hate, it's just way to easy to lose the tail in less than perfect conditions where you might be getting bucked around.

My split is the Winterstick ST62, which has 4mm taper also. I can feel it, but barely. I think anything in the sub-10mm range will be the sweet spot for a directional board for ungroomed snow - at least for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
tiltedworld wrote:
I completely agree with Barrows on the taper. In fact it has been my biggest complaint about the Fish @ 30mm taper and then later the Malolo @ 20mm of taper. The Malolo is my powder board I am learning to hate, it's just way to easy to lose the tail in less than perfect conditions where you mint be getting bucked around.

My split is the Winterstick ST62, which has 4mm taper also. I can feel it, but barely. I think anything in the sub-10mm range will be the sweet spot for a directional board for ungroomed snow - at least for me.

Funny you should mention that about the Fish and Malolo. I had a homemade split Fish, which I sold because it was just too squirrely for me. I also have a homemade split Malolo, which I like better but am not crazy about, again due to the taper and how "unidirectional" it makes the board. I'll probably sell it. In contrast, my old Burton S-series split, which I loved in pretty much all conditions, has 6mm taper. My Jones has pretty much zero taper, but interestingly enough it doesn't feel hard to maneuver the tail around at all. I think that's due to a combination of the other design elements in that board. Also, based on its performance so far this season, I don't think the rocker it has will present any problems in spring steeps. I do think the camber between the feet and mellow magne help with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:13 am 
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Location: Cupertino, CA
jimw wrote:
Funny you should mention that about the Fish and Malolo. I had a homemade split Fish, which I sold because it was just too squirrely for me. I also have a homemade split Malolo, which I like better but am not crazy about, again due to the taper and how "unidirectional" it makes the board. I'll probably sell it. In contrast, my old Burton S-series split, which I loved in pretty much all conditions, has 6mm taper. My Jones has pretty much zero taper, but interestingly enough it doesn't feel hard to maneuver the tail around at all. I think that's due to a combination of the other design elements in that board. Also, based on its performance so far this season, I don't think the rocker it has will present any problems in spring steeps. I do think the camber between the feet and mellow magne help with that.


Also the taper exacerbates the width of the nose on the Fish/Malolo, which makes the nose feel like its hanging up on really steep terrain, especially on the older camber models (mines a '05). Try to shift your weight forward a smidge to compensate - and you lose the tail again.

I will say that the newer Malolo with the S-rocker is much better, as the nose is softer to not catch as much. My wife has a smaller 154 one and it is really light and works well for her in powder. Doesn't mean it will work for me in a bigger size. I am thinking Hovercraft 160 for my resort powder board next year, but that's subject to change..


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:49 pm
Posts: 2
I'd like to jump in and get some information from you knowledgeable gents if you don't mind...
Barrows, what's your opinion on the Storm R for the trees? I'm considering it for my in-bounds board next year and when I'm at the resorts around all those people I find safety (& snow) in the trees and pretty much stay there all day. My old NS Legacy 166 is starting to show its age and I'm looking at the Zephyr and the Storm. Are they pretty stiff? How about the weight? The Legacy is incredibly stiff and rides like a canon but boy you better be on your game 'cause it will let you know if not. I came from a 172 Lib prior to that and it was a noodle, but was forgiving and I could maneuver that through any trees. My split is a 166 S-series and is in between those 2 - noodley and shorter and I pretty much hate it. I think for inbounds I like a little shorter (no less than 166) and stiffer so I can get around the trees, but still have a strong edge to stop my 6'-2" 185 lbs. from hitting more of them than I already do. The only problem with the Legacy is that it's so friggin heavy that I'm exhausted way before I feel I should be (it's the board I swear...).
Of course, I've never ridden a rocker board so all my past experience may be useless in my decision...
Thanks for all the insight thus far.


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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:38 pm
Posts: 818
Location: The Belly of Ham baby!!
Rocker does not hurt steep riding performance. There are other variables that are far more important; such as taper, sidecut, and stiffness.

My big question is: Who in this industry rides the knarliest and raddest terrain?

My big answer is: Jeremy Jones and Xavier de la Rue

Blunted, early rise noses act like big shock absorbers on spines and hard bumps. Camber is less forgiving...

Its true that camber offers more effective edge and is king for carving performance, but my experience is that camber is far, far scarier to control in technical terrain than a rockered stick. I really don't care what some of the elitist Jones haters think, the Solution 161 is handsdown the best all around shape for freeriding I've ever been on. The LibTech C2's are more fun for jibbing and spinning, but for all-out control at speed and on steep, technical terrain, the blunted early-rise nose of the Jones and Rossi shapes dominates. The bottom line is that cambered boards with big effective edge length force you into turns when you don't want to, and are harder to initiate into turns when you do want them to. On steep, icy terrain, this scares this willies out of me.

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 Post subject: Re: Steep skiing: Rocker or not to Rocker.......
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1504
Location: Colorado
Storm R rips in the trees, better than any cambered board ever could-simple as that.

Russman: who are the "elite Jones haters"? Do you mean Jones boards, or Jeremy Jones the rider? I have not heard of anyone who "hates" JJ or Jones boards?
In any case, I mostly agree with your take on rockered boards, and I also feel that the nose shape on the Jones boards is the best nose I have ever seen for freeriding in powder and variable conditions-no question about it.
Too bad there is no Jones board (split) which suits my riding though, stances are wrong, widths and lengths are all wrong (for me) and I do not want magne, mostly for durability reasons (we hit too many rocks here with our low density snow). I also prefer made in US boards, rather than made in cheap labor third world country of our choice boards.
In any case this discussion originated regarding steep ice riding-this is a type of riding that is not done at speed, and the main thrust of the discussion regards whether a full rocker board is ideal for this, very specific, riding condition. Even JJ and Xavier DLR do not ride fast when they get into really steep terrain with exposure and non perfect snow (reference Chamonix segment of Deeper).

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Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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