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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:38 am 
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Maybe one reason for the big difference in sidecut between snowboard and skis is that on a board, you have all your weight on the one "ski", wheras on skis your weight is distributed between the two skis. With all your weight on the board, it's easier to flex it such that the entire edge is in contact with the snow. But it would be interesting to try a board with a more ski-like sidecut. That Lib tech idea sounds really interesting too.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:49 am 
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jimw wrote:
Maybe one reason for the big difference in sidecut between snowboard and skis is that on a board, you have all your weight on the one "ski", wheras on skis your weight is distributed between the two skis.


I also had this idea, but I think in a lot of situations skiers are mostly weighting just the downhill ski.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:45 am 
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Maybe with most snowboarders standing sideways on the board, a bigger sidecut helps with a relatively big transition from heel to toe and back again. A hardbooter with bigger stance angles and shoulders more square to the fall line, like a skier, wouldn't need such a big sidecut.

I know there are guys on this forum who work for snowboard manufacturers and maybe they could shed some light on the subject. My guess is that its probably experiential - most snowboarders like bigger sidecut for what they're doing. As the current designs show, the freeride and big mountain boards have less sidecut because people like that better when it gets steep and firm.

Sidecuts in skis have really grown in recent years and that re-thinking was likely in reaction to the success of bigger snowboard sidecut. Maybe skis would benefit from even bigger sidecut for most applications (not steep & firm!) but skis are just phyically to narrow to cut any deeper. Instead, they get more sidecut by widening the nose and tail, but there is a limit to how far they want to go with that...


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 Post subject: Here's one for ya'...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:13 pm 
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According to Fin over @ Bomberonline, 2 years ago someone bought a PAIR of Volkl Renntigers (19waist) in a 178 for pow skis! Imagine turning a pair of those babies! :lol: Sure wouldn't use them on an icy day.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:38 pm 
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Holy crap! I didn't know Shaq was into skiing powder! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:01 pm 
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Yeah I guess more sidecut=more fun+less security.

Funny thing is that those crossbows, with a 20 m turn radius, are super-easy to turn, and I'm not even a skier.

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 Post subject: Re: Here's one for ya'...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:08 pm 
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Jon Dahl wrote:
According to Fin over @ Bomberonline, 2 years ago someone bought a PAIR of Volkl Renntigers (19waist) in a 178 for pow skis! Imagine turning a pair of those babies! :lol: Sure wouldn't use them on an icy day.


somebody has to got to track down some visual evidence of this! I gotta see that.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:00 pm 
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Huevon, I'm a splitter of course and I've been making and tweaking my own boards for 8 years now and I thought I'd throw my two cents your way. I wouldn't but too much weight on the role of sidecut in backcountry snow. In most soft snow that doesn't have a defined hard surface within the first 6-8" the sidecut on the board is really not doing anything at all. In this kind of good snow whether wet or dry, the arc that your board turns is defined by the arc that your flexed board makes. The board in this kind of snow is turning off of the base not the edge.
Visualize a surfboard's rail sunk in the smooth face of a wave or for that matter on the flat water in front of a wave. The primary element of the boards design that makes it turn in arc is the amount of curve or rocker shaped in to the board. Take this image to your board flexed into a turn in deep snow. There is no rocker built in to the snowboard so it is the flex of the board, your speed and how much of your weight that you are pushing into your board that determine how much it flexes and how quick it turns. Ironically, the standard snowboard when you are going slow only flexes a little bit and it turns and responds sluggishly. When you go faster, the board flexes more and will turn tighter arcs. When you are really smoking fast is when the board will flex way too much and try to turn the tightest arc. This is where the rider begins to smear their turns because there's no way the board and the snow it is in can back up such a tight radius turn.
I'd say most boards have a tight turning radius of 8,9, or 10 meters because when you have them on the hard or softpack of an exit trail they are responsive and start little carved turns easily. I have fairly identical boards with 10, 12, 14, and 14+ meter sdiecuts. In an any kind of soft homogenous snow where my board sinks in at least half way, There is really no difference between them.
I made the really shallow sideccuts and prefer them because I like to go fast. What I love about them is if you are going real quick arcing through some soft snow and your board suddenly pops up onto a windcrust/melt-freeze whatever, your board will continue to carve that same bigger arc that you had started. This is of course given that the board is adequately stiff. If you are banked over, going 35 mph+ on an 8 meter sidecut board, and you pop up on a firm layer there is no way that the board can carve as tight a turn as the sidecut wants to. Even if it could, one's legs probably couldn't push that hard.
Thanks for the topic, it was a nice break from studying to blather on about boards. If you are hitting high angle terrain and firmer snow surfaces or having edge hold issues, I don't think sidecut is really the make or break issue. Try having your sidewalls ground back at something like 5 to 8 degrees between your feet to make a super sharp edge, and try to improve your support in your boot/binding combo. But you don't have to get carried away and go plastic :D But then, I'm spoiled where I am.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:47 am 
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spoiled wrote:
If you are hitting high angle terrain and firmer snow surfaces or having edge hold issues, I don't think sidecut is really the make or break issue.


Well I will respectfully disagree in this point until I have a chance to see for myself. On firm steeps you spend a lot of time on edge at low speeds, and jump-turning instead of carving. Clearly if I had good snow and a safe runout, I could just rip it up and cook along at 30 mph, without a care in the world about whether my edges would allow me to stop if I had to.

For survival-boarding I'm not as concerned with carving performance, or performance at speed. I'm not comfortable taking a 2000-foot 45-degree face with crevasses, seracs, and rockbands at full speed, except maybe in perfect, hero conditions (which are very rare). From my experiences I know there is a definite problem with the edge not engaging at low speeds. This is likely due to the fact that standing weight is not enough to flex an 8-meter sidecut into complete contact with a flat, 40+ degree edge-proof slope (in this stuff you leave NO tracks whatsoever). One answer to this specific problem is in fact less sidecut. It becomes easier for the entire edge to engage with the slope with less sidecut. Less sidecut also means that once the board is flexed, the angle between the edge and the slope is closer to perpendicular, which also leads to increased hold.

Well, I wish I had your quiver of boards, man! :) I'm keeping my eyes open for some long-radius boards so I can test out my beliefs and see what kind of difference it makes.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:30 pm 
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Vaya Huevon! Yeah ouch. Sounds like you're finding some very harsh conditions. I definitely agree with you on the straighter edge not walking your feet off the face. I don't do that kind of riding at all. Pretty much everything I wrote was all about soft snow. Have you noticed Steve Koch's set up? He's really into the steep and hard and frightening and appears to go for short stiff boards. I have found 12 meter sidecuts to be responsive and versatile on the occasional hard surface. I would not say the same for 14 meters but they are certainly still functional. Length and twist are going to figure in largely as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Vaya Huevon! Yeah ouch. Sounds like you're finding some very harsh conditions. I definitely agree with you on the straighter edge not walking your feet off the face. I don't do that kind of riding at all. Pretty much everything I wrote was all about soft snow. Have you noticed Steve Koch's set up? He's really into the steep and hard and frightening and appears to go for short stiff boards. I have found 12 meter sidecuts to be responsive and versatile on the occasional hard surface. I would not say the same for 14 meters but they are certainly still functional. Length and twist are going to figure in largely as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:33 pm 
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Vaya Huevon! javascript:emoticon(':shock:') Yeah ouch. Sounds like you're finding some very harsh conditions. I definitely agree with you on the straighter edge not walking your feet off the face. I don't do that kind of riding at all. Pretty much everything I wrote was all about soft snow. Have you noticed Steve Koch's set up? He's really into the steep and hard and frightening and appears to go for short stiff boards. I have found 12 meter sidecuts to be responsive and versatile on the occasional hard surface. I would not say the same for 14 meters but they are certainly still functional. Length and twist are going to figure in largely as well. :shock: :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Vaya Huevon! javascript:emoticon(':shock:') Yeah ouch. Sounds like you're finding some very harsh conditions. I definitely agree with you on the straighter edge not walking your feet off the face. I don't do that kind of riding at all. Pretty much everything I wrote was all about soft snow. Have you noticed Steve Koch's set up? He's really into the steep and hard and frightening and appears to go for short stiff boards. I have found 12 meter sidecuts to be responsive and versatile on the occasional hard surface. I would not say the same for 14 meters but they are certainly still functional. Length and twist are going to figure in largely as well.


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