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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:57 am 
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sickpow wrote:
Snurfer wrote:
sickpow wrote:
For the most part people ride too big of boards for terrain. Smaller is better for a snowboard. Its not skiing.
Care to quantify better? Also curious how much you weigh?


220lbs with touring gear. 6.3 feet. smaller is better IMO for the terrain people are on. If you are ripping AK 2,000ft+ steep ass runs all season, then sure, the biggest you can handle. But after ridding tons of different boards, I think it should be the opposite, the smallest you can get away with, for control and fun.


I'm a similar size, but I respectfully disagree with this thinking on board size. I think people should experiment in decimeters rather than centimeters. Here's why:

All things being equal, shorter boards simply do not provide the float or stability of longer boards. While I can calibrate my riding to turn a long board in the trees (quite easily, actually), physics precludes a short board from providing (1) the stability I need and want at the end of a 40mph arc, (2) the stability to bust a big fast turn through choppy snow, or (3) the braking power I might need in a suddenly tough situation.

In addition to being more versatile, the stability of a long board affords more comfort with speed and adverse terrain, allowing you to charge terrain faster, more aggressively and more smoothly without being board-limited. That "speed security" creates physical and mental space for progression--it changes how you engage the mountain by widening what your body and brain perceive to be possible.

I could go on, but this is why I take the opposite view: I prefer to ride the longest board I can get away with, not the shortest.

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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:07 am 
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Enjoyiong everyones insights... While I'm personally sold on bigger boards, I appreciated Brook's perspective one why he likes a smaller board (Yes, you heard me right, we agree on something :D ).
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around bigger guys riding small boards :scratch: Perhaps its the terrain being ridden. Regardless, if it provides them with stoke, so be it...

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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Posts: 357
Quote:
Taylor wrote:

I'm waiting for someone to make a split that is...

- 180 - 190 cm
- 12-13m radius sidecut
- up to 26" stance width
- directional; with a pin or blunt kick tail
- rockered slightly in the nose / cambered otherwise (and in the tail)
- moderately tapered
- at least 27cm at the waist
- stable and damp at high speeds, especially in fast large radius turns

...I'll probably have to have a custom deck made.


. . . and I am waiting for someone to buy one, :thumpsup:
kidding really, no way I could get any boards done this year. :cry:
Are you in UT?


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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Got my fist day in on my 2011 Venture Storm. Snow conditions were not that great, variable from one turn to the next, breakable crusts, windboard, dust on crust, some sections of pow. The board is really easy to turn, pivot, drift, and the rocker does help the float. This initial excursion has so far solidified my belief that the tail rocker is a bit of a liability for directional riders. The board seems to be too loose, and to get it to hold through the middle of the turn takes an effort. Of course, I need more time on it to really come to any conclusions. Of course for those looking to ride switch tail rocker makes sense, but with as much taper as the Storm has it seems purpose built to be a directional board. The Jones boards seem too freestyle oriented for me (huge tail) and the stance options do not work. But I love the nose design-JJ has designed the best nose ever, and close watching of Deeper really shows this feature in action.
I would like to see Venture go to an early rise tip, combined with slight camber through the mid section and tail for the Storm-and go to a much longer radius sidecut (11 meter on the 166, 11.5-12 on the 170). This approach would also differentiate the Storm more from the Zephyr, making the Storm more for the directional rider seeking a truly high performance freeride board, and the Zephyr the board for the all arounder who wants to throw some switch riding and tricks into their riding.
Yes, I love the TB (I have a solid one) and I expect a TB with an early rise tip would be very nice indeed...

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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Ace, thanks all, very interesting to read, and to see both sides of my internal debate!

Quote:
...riding big boards in Pow pow is just amazing, and its really not that hard to ride them through the trees...and or on anything else in the POW. That's one of the main reasons I ride, THE POW


Yes, Yes, Yes! If I think back to, say, my 5 most overwhelming moments ever on a snowboard, more than half have been big super G turns on a swallowtail, nothing quite like having that much board under you, spreading the pressure of a fast turn in soft snow and really letting you rail it...

Totally agree with Taylor too, especially the "speed security" thing..

BUT, Brooks has hit the nail on the head for the other side when he says shorter boards allow you the time to play around with things a bit more.

If you've just spent 4 hours touring up 4000 feet, is it a bit of waste to Johan straight back down again in less than a minute? I remember finishing runs on my swallow, looking back and seeing my buddies on 160s only half way down, still having a ball...

And I don't know where whistlermaverick was coming from with the "all boards look like twin tips" comment, but I think he has a point (it might not be the same as the one he was trying to make though!)

There are some obvious exceptions (Fish, Storm, swallows, Dupraz etc) but if you took the inserts out and the graphics off the average all mountain shape, you might have to look quite closely to tell the nose from the tail. seems funny when you think of other directional things, like boats, surfboards, aeroplanes, dolphins...

Even the really direction shapes still keep the classic round kicktail, even though they'd be rubbish to ride fakie. That's really why I asked the question, I guess. If these shapes so directional already, why keep this roundtail appendix? Why not at least go flat, with hardly any rocker, like skis used to be before they started making them for all the kids skiing the park and dropping 50ft cliff backwards? And once you've done that, why not a swallow? Unless there's a really sound reason I've not been considering?

More and more are, though, so maybe it's just a fashion thing that has needed to gain some momentum?

Edit: barrows, sorry, I spent a while writing that and missed yours, I was hoping you'd post soon about how you like the Storm. Mixed feelings so far, then? It's the tail rocker that puts me off that one...


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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:45 pm 
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If you're interested, here's what's prompted all this mulling: I'm off on a camping/touring trip for 2 1/2 weeks at the end of the season, and it would be uber-shit to case the Mojo early and be boardless for the rest of the trip, so I'm thinking of getting another and taking the Mojo as backup. I like the look of the Prior hybrid rocker and the Backcountry seems like an obvious choice. I keep going back and forth between the 161 and the 165 and then I think "F**k it, exactly why isn't the Powstick a bloody brilliant choice?" for all the reasons at the start.

So:
The "go for the length I've settled on over the years, but with the rocker giving me more manouverability" option? (165BC);
The "go short and fun but with the rocker giving me similar float" option (161BC);
Or the "quite a lot of my riding doesn't involve trees, do I ever ride switch anyway, and F*** it, why not?" option (the 172 Powstick)?

Ho hum...


me: 155lbs, 5'11"
current split: 166 camber mojo
Mostly ridden solids 165-168
Also have a 2001 176 Powstick: stiff, heavy with short, rounder nose shape with very little rise - amazing in pow and on groomers, but a bit of a handful making slower turns in interesting places when the snow gets heavier and choppier.
Rode a 185 Swell Panik Global for a week a few years ago, softer flex, especially in the nose which had 40sm of smooth rocker. 40cms. much lighter than the Prior, much easier to handle.


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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Posts: 522
nedrapier wrote:
And I don't know where whistlermaverick was coming from with the "all boards look like twin tips" comment, but I think he has a point (it might not be the same as the one he was trying to make though!)

Even the really direction shapes still keep the classic round kicktail, even though they'd be rubbish to ride fakie. That's really why I asked the question, I guess. If these shapes so directional already, why keep this roundtail appendix? Why not at least go flat, with hardly any rocker, like skis used to be before they started making them for all the kids skiing the park and dropping 50ft cliff backwards? And once you've done that, why not a swallow? Unless there's a really sound reason I've not been considering?

More and more are, though, so maybe it's just a fashion thing that has needed to gain some momentum?


I think that on a snowboard, everyone has to ride switch for a short distance every once in a while- i.e. traversing through tight trees to get to a more open spot.

I have to admit, the shape of the storm doesn't entirely make sense in my head. That board has HUGE rocker on the nose. It does look like 2011 has mellowed some, but last year's was crazy. Why not camber it under foot, or mellow out the tail rocker. Like Barrows says, you lose a lot of power from the rocker tail. And when the rocker is as severe as the storm is, I would imagine you lose a lot of power.

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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:32 pm 
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I've drank the industry kool-aid and have consistently bought shorter boards for powder over the years:

195 Voile Swallowtail -> 180 Voile Freeride -> 178 Prior Spearhead -> 170 Prior Khyber

I totally love the Khyber for tight chutes and trees but once it opens up I start to miss the longer edge and additional surface area of a bigger board. I especially notice if I happen to smack some crud in the middle of a high speed turn. I think for next year I'll add a longer big mountain board to the quiver to make sure I have the right tool for the job.

The discussion in this thread is fun because on one side you have people arguing that shorter boards are better because they rock tight areas and then you have others saying bigger boards are better because they can charge big lines. My answer is "D. All of the above". I just need to buy more boards :)

For people that want to ride one board for everything, pick what you do the most of... a good rider is going to compensate and still have a great time. I rode plenty of tight chutes on my 195 and had a blast and charged some big lines on my 170 with a huge grin.

My hope for next year is that I'll have some better big mountain options to chose from, there are definitely more freestyle type of boards out there right now. It's what you see at the resort, we just need more backcountry-specific boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Location: Colorado
I agree with WasatchDon, to a point. I am 6'1", and the biggest boards I have ridden have been the Matt Goodwill 179 from Morrow, and the old Gnu RaceRoom at 178. Both these boards could be manuvered in tight spots (with effort), and they charged at speed, and truly excelled when one was at speed and suddenly had to deal with hitting some buried avy debris, or other anomalous snow condition. The long edge contact was really nice as well, making for a super stable ride on edge.
In my mind the biggest drawback of large boards is really weight, so I am settled on the idea of boards right around 170 for giving me the best versatility for my riding.
eh c. I do not find the rocker on the nose of the Storm to be any problem, or think that it is "huge". I like the nose rocker, and think it provides a big advantage, as it eases turn initiation (less abrupt hooking) floats up nicely in the pow, but most of all, it helps when dealing with inconsistent snow (runnels, avy debris, sastrugi) as a traditional camber nose tends to want to catch on any obstacle it encounters.
As for tails, I prefer to have some tail kick, as backing up is sometimes necessary in tight spots, but I have no need for a huge tail like the Jones boards have-those who want to ride powder switch, or land airs switch will like the big tail, but to me it is just extra weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:16 pm 
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barrows wrote:
eh c. I do not find the rocker on the nose of the Storm to be any problem, or think that it is "huge". I like the nose rocker, and think it provides a big advantage, as it eases turn initiation (less abrupt hooking) floats up nicely in the pow, but most of all, it helps when dealing with inconsistent snow (runnels, avy debris, sastrugi) as a traditional camber nose tends to want to catch on any obstacle it encounters.
As for tails, I prefer to have some tail kick, as backing up is sometimes necessary in tight spots, but I have no need for a huge tail like the Jones boards have-those who want to ride powder switch, or land airs switch will like the big tail, but to me it is just extra weight.


To be clear, I haven't ridden the storm, but just looking at ones that friends had, it seemed excessive, but if it works, so much the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
My thought on the Venture Storm (we had last year's 162 split) is that the tail rocker is too extreme. I have ridden other rockered boards with less tail rocker and they do not have the issues I found with the Storm.

If the rocker is slight enough that the full edge length is in contact with the snow when the board is slightly on edge (this is definitely not the case with the Venture), I think a lot of the issues of tail rocker will be minimized and the benefits (there are a couple of new turn types possible) can be mostly maintained.

I thought the nose rocker was fine, but I think they could cut off a few centimeters of the pointy tip and have a shorter board that rides the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Buell: good observations. One of my riding partners has a 2010 Storm, and I have the 2011. As far as I can tell they come from the same mold, ie same rocker profile. There is a difference though, the 2011 is quite a bit stiffer in the nose and tail, Klem has confirmed this with me, and hand flexing demonstrates it as well. The increased stiffness should reduce the effect of the rocker.
I only have one day on the board so far, and will report more after I have gotten it out in more situations-I am concerned how it is going to handle in the steeps, and will certainly report in on that. As noted, my peliminary point of view is that I would prefer a little camber through the midsection and tail of the board. more later.

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Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Big board, long sidecut, nose rocker & camber underfoot...
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Location: Salida, Flagstaff
I too find the tail rocker in the Storm to be a problem. Here is a review I wrote about it:

-----

This review follows a season on the board riding a variety of conditions and terrains. For context, I am 6'3" and 215 lbs. I've been riding since 1983; I'm an ex-racer, I like turning, I ride long decks and put a lot of pressure on them.

I LIKE:

1. Great turn initiation. It's quick to initiate and stable to complete small and medium radius turns at low and moderate speeds in soft snow conditions. It pivots quickly and effortlessly in the trees--even at 181cm.

2. Floats great in pow. Nose jumps right up, tapered tail sinks right in.

3. Solid feel in most conditions. Solid, stable feel underfoot at low and moderate speeds on most terrain and mixed snow conditions. It handles aggressive forward-pressure up front and in the middle beautifully, yielding a ride that is energetic, responsive and yet stable.

4. Best construction and enviro ethic in the business. Durable as hell; green materials to boot, climate change advocacy. Major props here, Venture.

I'D CHANGE:

1. A cambered tail. The rockered (de-cambered) tail can't hold as much pressure as I'd like. This compromises acceleration and stability at the end of fast, large-radius turns and undermines edge hold and on steep ice. A big mountain board should excel at both jobs; a cambered tail would fix that. Last year Venture advertised but did not press cambered versions of this deck. I was bummed about that.

2. Widen the stance. Bigger boards are for bigger people; stance widths should widen proportionally with board length to better fit tall people who ride long boards. I could easily use another inch or two.

OVERALL RATING: 8.5. Highly recommended for larger people who want a solid, durable deck that aptly handles most conditions and terrain--especially in trees and tighter-terrain pow--who don't mind spending a little extra for green sourcing, environmental responsibility, and unsurpassed durability and construction.

With a few design suggestions, I'm a very satisfied customer.

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195 Glissade Big Gun
187 Donek Custom Split
181 Venture Storm Solid and Split
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