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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:38 am 
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 7:13 am
Posts: 28
Location: Chamonix
Thanks Buell and Barrows

I am starting to figure it out its hard when you dont have the boots in front of you and i have never ridden is hard boots so cant imagine the probs, but the mods do ake sense to me now.

All i know is that even with the Sparks that i bought a few years ago and some stiff soft boots i cant cross steep hard pack or icy slopes as easily as my hard boot wearing mates! period. By the time i get to the top with my board on my back they are ready to come down and they dont appear to have problems riding down in plastics either.

I could try and source some F3's but they are no longer sold even over here so will prob be after some F1's Not sure how to rig up the top strap once the walk/ski mode is taken off but this become obvious once i get them.

Barrows, yes i do have to cross a fair amount of flats even in the Alps.

Thanks again guys and i will keep you up to date, BTW i mailed Stephen Koch to get his mod list for the F1's will post the response if i get one.

Cheers

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
Definitely let us know what Koch replies. I just reread his blog post and it sounds like he uses the stock ride mechanism.


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Buell, Awesome that the cube worked with the F1s.

I like the F1s with the Dynafit binding / toe piece and the Spark Dynafit adapter plate. Where I get incredible range of flex while skinning up, and great control while skiing down an ice trail (better than soft boots). This also allows me to ride canted Sno-pro race bindings (or the new Bomber Splitboard SideWinder Bindings Bhttp://www.bomberonline.com/store/bindings/splitboard.cfm,

The Sidewinder allows for lateral flex, great for riding down as a snowboard, bad for skinning and traversing, But this is not an issue when your touring and skiing with the F1/F3 combined with the Dynafit binding), you get the best of both worlds. Please note I have not tried the Sidewinder bindings, perhaps when when Finn and the HardBooters come to Snowmass (see http://www.bomberonline.com/ses/index.cfm.

I think the F1 boots offer the most promise to "mod" for forward lean mechanism, without modifying the plastic boot itself, because the forward lean is outside of the boot. See the F1/BTS thread.

Unemployment is preventing the above Bomberonline purchases. :( Thanks Buell for sending me the F1 parts from your Sparks cube-mod F1 boots

The point here is the F1/F3 combined with the Dynafit binding really makes a huge difference in performance for reasons. mentioned above.


BTW F3s are on 50% off sale at: http://www.departmentofgoods.com/scarpa-f3-alpine-touring-boot?AVAD=25425_a10c1b85

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
Pow, you are currently riding the F1s stock, correct? How is the flex during normal riding?

Also, are your Snowpros only the toe and heel bales mounted to the Voile sliders instead of the whole binding?


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
I ride with the just the toe and heel pieces Snow Pro race plate bindings and modified the Voile Slider plate (). I wear a 27 mondo-boot size and had to add two additional holes in slider plate for the Toe piece .

The nice thing about the "Snow Pro Race Plate bindings" is the the toe and heel piece line-up with the holes of the Voiles Slider Plates. I purchased a different pair of Snow Pro plates bindings and the did not line up the Voiles Slider Plate holes.

The Snow Pro race bindings also allow me to independently position the boot over the middle of the board, along the binding axis.

The Snow Pros bindings come with two Cants 3 degree plates (for each toe and heel piece, so that you can run 0 - 3 - 6 degrees of cant. Last I was riding a free carve 22" stance (higher angles) 3 and 6 degree of cant. This year I am riding a 20" stance with 3 degree cants and a normal snowboarding free-riding angles (21 and 6 degrees). My stance has change as a result of adding the dynafit toe pieces and the G3 dual heel lifter to my splitboard. Ultimately I wanted a more narrow and natural stance. The point here is canting really does help with comfort and the ride down.

I currently ride my my F1s stock with power straps. I just start to ride soft boots again. I ridden HBs for two decades (Sorels before that), so I am curious how modifying for forward lean will help the "ride" without compromising the skiing aspect of splitboarding.

Much of the simpler Mods discussed for the F1 (removing the power straps and tongues) are this year's F1 Race Boot.

One final note: Jarret Lund was the first snow boarder to ride all of the 14ers here in Colorado see: http://snowboarding.transworld.net/1000126359/featuresobf/the-first-14er-jarrett-luttrell/comment-page-1/ . He did it in Scrapa F1 boots.

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Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Yes, I ride stock F1s, I like the stock flex.

Please note that I come from more from the hardboot carving style of snowboarding. The last pair of Softboots, I rode were Sorels with a lace-up Ski liner with a Sims 170 Blade... Then moved into craving ( first a Burton PJ and Burton MegaFlex boots) a Burton Speed.... Now this year I am trying softboots, a pair Vans Switch X Boots and Switch X binding on my Burton Fish, based on the comments made by Scott Newsome's thread: see http://splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2324&hilit=vans+switch+newsome

BTW: I wish I had the MegaFlex boots stll, because much of the forward and lateral flex was designed into those boots. Of course you got to have the Dynafits. I sold them a couple years ago and got the F1s. Ah progress... got to love it.

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:02 am 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
I wanted clarify the following statement:

Quote:
The Sidewinder allows for lateral flex (Lou Dawson calls this "rolling deflection"), great for riding down as a snowboard, bad for skinning and traversing, But this is not an issue when your touring and skiing with the F1/F3 combined with the Dynafit binding), you get the best of both worlds.


Lou Dawson, Wildsnow.com talks about rolling deflection in testing boot and binding combinations, he says:
Quote:
Here at WildSnow HQ we test randonnee backcountry skiing bindings for how solid they attach your foot to the ski (as when the cuff of the boot is tilted/pushed from side to side, otherwise known as ‘rolling deflection’).
While rolling deflection is not as big a factor in downhill control as some people think, it still makes a difference in how the binding “feels,” and definitely affects how well bindings ski on hard snow or ice, especially if your skis tend to flutter or chatter, and you need a binding that doesn’t exacerbate that effect.
See more at http://www.wildsnow.com/379/backcountry-skiing-binding-flex-tests/

So it would appear the Sidewinder binding introduces rolling deflection, if you were to use the binding in tour-mode. Would this present a similar issue in traversing an ice slope, as soft boots?
In contrast, using the F1 and F3 with the Dynafit toe piece greatly improves the tour-mode of splitboarding, especially when skiing with a full pack on down a trail or when traversing.

The Bomber Sidewinder is a definite improvement for Hard Booters (and us HB Splitboarders), see "Cams" comments in http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=308535#post308535 .

Which brings me to ask, "does modify the F1/F3 boots for lateral flex (rolling deflection) compromise the tour-ability (traversing) and skiing your splitboard"? Have you tried Dynatfits, F1/F3 for touring before modifying the boot for lateral flex? If so have you tried canting the plate bindings for the ride?

Why is modifying a F1/F3 for lateral flex a desired attribute for free-riding?

I do think a forward lean adjuster is needed, which we are addressing in this thread and in the F1/BTS thread.

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1505
Location: Colorado
Lateral and medial flex: most snowboarders want to have lateral and medial flex in their boots. Flex in these directions allows for better adaptability and control in variable terrain and snow conditions, as well as the fluidity necessary for riding with a surf style (or for those inclined to some freestyle moves). Boots designed for skiing (AT) are specifically built to be stiff laterally and medially, as stiffness in these directions is paramount to good edge control of a ski. For snowboarding it makes sense to mod boots, to provide more flexibility in the lateral and medial directions, and/or to use an articulated binding like the Bomber Sidewinder. personally, I prefer lighter weight gear, and run Burton Raceplate or Catek toe and heel pieces directly mounted to the Voile slider plate, along with Dynafit toes for tour mode. To make this system work for my riding style, I then mod the boots to get better lateral and medial flex.
Note, that even my modded boots allow for much better touring, as they are still quite a bit more precise than soft boots in ski mode. The lighter weight AT boots now produced are a great platform to start with.

_________________
Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
Great posts Pow and barrows.

Pow, yes modding the boots to increase lat/med flex compromises tourability. Touring and riding have opposite needs in this area and must be balanced. I find the bellow on the F1/F3 to cause much greater sidehilling issues on firm snow than any mods done to increase lat/med flex. As barrows writes though, I find the touring so dramatically better than in softboots regardless.

I do not ride with canting while hardboot carving and have not tried it on the split. It would be easy to do with my F2 toe and heel pieces on the Voile slider. Maybe I will try it because it makes some since due to the lower angles. It is nice during transitions having interchangable bindings though.

Lat/med flex is needed while riding to allow for weight shifts along the long axis of the board. It is important that these shifts start in the feet and legs and lat/med boot/binding flex is required. The lower angles we ride on splits make this even more important.

I want my flex to come from the boot/binding interface whereas barrows works to get the flex from the boot. I think the difference is minor but top alpine racers use a binding that has lot more flex than most US hardboot freecarvers. That is because the softer binding is better at absorbing rougher terrain and allows the legs more freedom for weight shifts along the long axis of the board.. The SW split binding is actually an easy mod by Fin from his alpine SW binding which was developed as a bullet proof binding with built in lat/med flex.

I have ridden the alpine SWs but prefer the F2s for carving. I am excited to try the SW split binding because the F2s lose some of their flex when the toe and heel pieces are direct mounted. Like barrows, I am concerned about the SW weight but will use them if they are good enough on the down.

I do not expect the SWs to tour well, but consider that irrelevant with dynafit toepieces. Pow, in the BOL thread you linked to, I had reviewed them on page 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:05 am 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Quote:
I want my flex to come from the boot/binding interface whereas Barrows works to get the flex from the boot. I think the difference is minor but top alpine racers use a binding that has lot more flex than most US hardboot freecarvers. That is because the softer binding is better at absorbing rougher terrain and allows the legs more freedom for weight shifts along the long axis of the board


I have not noticed a stiff lateral flex in the boot/binding canted interface when riding riding Burton Race or Snowpro Race plate bindings with Burton MGX Boots (the original hot pink boot), and F1 AT Boots for Free-carving. I do notice a stiffer lateral flex when I ride with Raichle Hard Boots, but these boots are for carving.

I did notice a much rougher ride on-piste with my new Venture Storm R 163 split as compare to riding my 178 Prior Backcountry cambered split on-piste. So the Sidewinders I would like to own to soften up the ride.

Buell: I think your are correct about the boot/binding interface. We should look at boot/binding interface(s) works as a whole unit, both in tour and ride mode.

The discussion on boot flex here, is very interesting to me , because this year I am moving from free-carving to free-riding, including riding in softboots.

Buell: with the Cube F1 do you miss the forward lean lock at all for riding and skiing? In contrast Scarpa eliminated the F1 tongue and powerstrap, but kept the forward lean adjuster for their F1 AT race boot.

The F1/F3 boot (bellows) w/ Dynafit toe piece helps in skiing, compared to Voile slider w/ plate bindings, because your weight is over the ball of your foot not over (or in front) of your toe. This weight distribution is very similar to parallel skiing on telemark skis.

The forward lean adjuster from a Switch X Highback binding mounted to the F1 boot cuff would work well. The Switch forward lean adjuster allows to retract a lever allowing for a walk-mode. This lever could be mounted into the existing screw holes of the F1 boot cuff in place of the F1 forward lean system. However, the only negative with this Switch X binding is that the forward lean adjust lever is made of plastic and breaks easy in the up position; if you leave the it up and fall on it.

Barrows: if you can find a Burton MGX Boots (the original hot pink boot 1989 -1990); you would find the boot cuff you are looking for. Mate the MGX boot cuff to your AT Boots. MGX boots allowed one; to unlock/lock & adjust lateral flex. One could also adjust forward lean and adjust forward lean tension (soft or hard), similar to a BTS system. I wonder if Salty Peaks has this boot in their snowboard museum?

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:06 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1505
Location: Colorado
POW D: I am aware of the design of the Burto MegaFlex boots with their adjustable slotted cuff rivet. Alpina also produced a boot like this back in the day, and my partners and I were briefly sponsored by Alpina and had some of these boots. I have found I prefer the progressive resistance of bending plastic to provide the lateral/medial flex I am looking for, rather than the mechanical feel of a slotted cuff. With patience, and creativity, it is not too hard to trim boot shells to achieve the desired flex. This is a balancing act between tour mode and ride mode, but so far I am pretty happy with flex I have in my Dynafits (after doing a lot of modding). I have gone back to using the Burton Race Plate toe and heel pieces, as these use 5 mm bails and flex quite a bit more than Bomber or Catek, which have very thick bales.
The sidewinder is another option, but I work really hard to reduce the weight of my system, and adding another 4 ounces per binding is not something I am willing to do.
BTW, for those looking for medial lateral flex, there is another option: check eBay for old Burton bindings, the old frame style plate binding allows for a lot of lateral and medial flex, and it could mount directly to the Voile Slider Plate. One can adjust the amount of flex with this binding by varying the spacing of the tower blocks, which hold the steel bar frame. This binding was produced back in the day of Peter Bauer and Jean Nerva, and the original mega-carving movement.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:56 am 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Barrows

"Back in the Day", I rode the Burton Vario -plate binding with the MGX boots.
Quote:
One can adjust the amount of flex with this binding by varying the spacing of the tower blocks, which hold the steel bar frame. This binding was produced back in the day of Peter Bauer and Jean Nerva, and the original mega-carving movement


Is there a way to quantify this desired lateral flex / progressive resistance? So that at some point in the near-future the a AT boot Manufacture could create such a boot or boot cuff.

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: Scarpa F1 and F3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1505
Location: Colorado
POW D, I would not know how to quantify this kind of flex. If an AT manufacturer was interested in producing a dedicated boot for freeriding/splitting, they should consult with a very experienced rider, and closely work together to create a great boot.
I have contacted the North American distributors of both Scarpa and Dynafit, encouraging them to consider developing such a boot, and offered to consult on the design, but they do not seem to be interested. A rider with a lot of hard boot and soft boot riding experience, combined with a lot of hard boor modding experience should work closely with the boot design experts at one of these companies to come up with something really good. The boot designers at these companies know how to achieve a specific flex, but they do not have the extensive snowboarding background required to know what type of flex is needed.

_________________
Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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