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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:37 pm 
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bcrider wrote:
That's funny, I was thinking the opposite. Based on what you described with it being harder to keep your balance when slowing down, it sounds like the high-responsiveness of the hardboots is working against you by making every slight change in balance more noticeable.


This may well be the case, but then there is a tradeoff, as with a more rigid setup it is easier to maintain the high forces that are often necessary to keep an edge. Edging in soft boots is a lot more demanding of your ankles and lower leg muscles.

In the specific case where I slid, I had just done a jump turn from toeside to heelside on a quite firm and steep slope, and upon landing I think I was a little off balance and leaned back too much. Like any typical snowboarder I let my hands and rear end contact the snow and went for a little ride, until I got back on top of the board and the 'snow' got a little nicer. I think if I had not bobbled it, and stayed on top of the board instead of fading backward, I'd have held it together with either type of boot... but since I haven't had a chance to try this in hardboots yet, I'll reserve judgement.

But the thing about hardboots, is that between boots and edges, there is no argument over who's boss. If you lose an edge in hardboots it's not for lack of power.

I think it's just really hard to stand in place on board no matter what the setup. It's why you always see snowboarders sitting down. Only you can't sit down on a steep firm slope without going for an unexpected ride.

Sometimes it's enough just to stick your hands out for balance. But this works a lot better toeside than heelside. It seems like to be able to reach back to the slope while heelside, you end up shifting you center of gravity behind the board, which will cause you to lose your edge.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:06 pm 
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huevon wrote:
It's why you always see snowboarders sitting down.


Not the good ones.

Next time you are at the ski resort take a look at the boarders getting off the lifts. 95% of them will be on their asses but the good ones don't need to sit down to put their bindings on. Being able to balance on your board while its stationary will only help your balance it when its moving. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:28 pm 
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No way, I use my iceaxe for strapping in too. I get wierd looks from the lifties, but they are too scared to come take it away from me. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:54 pm 
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jack wrote:
as another AASI intructor, i would agree that the problem is mostly technique, not gear.

I'm not an AASI instructor, I just play one on TV. :) I do think I've got decent technique. I certainly feel comfortable enough to hold my own on most any slope (little slide in the video notwithstanding!). But of course there's always room for improvement, and this is one of those areas for me. So perhaps you could offer a concrete suggestion instead of just suggesting that it's a "technique problem"?

Speaking of which, one thing I mentioned in the original post was that pushing my knees together to flex the board seems to help. Also, keeping the knees more bent than I would normally seems to help as well. The extreme opposite of this would be when you see a beginner slip out heelside and start bouncing down the hill with their legs almost straight.

Again, I'm only experiencing this issue on super steep stuff with hard snow (but I would assume that improving it in these conditions also could only make things better in "regular" conditions as well).

bcrider wrote:
I'm the opposite jim, I feel much more comfortable and in control on my heelside edge.

How much angle do you have in your front foot?

Weird! Really, you're more comfortable heelside? I feel like toeside I can stop on a dime, and put the board anywhere.

Anyone else on soft boots feel more comfortable heelside?

My angles are 6 back and 18 front. Binding position is in the "reference stance" on the Burton split.

Let me clarify a bit on the point where I typically start slipping out. It's *near* the end of the turn, but not at the very end when I'm basically stopped and just balancing. It's before I get to that point. When I'm toeside, I can do jump turns on super steeps and dig in as much as I want to. Doing the same thing heelside, I feel like there's a point of "digging in" that I can't go past or I'll start to slip out, and I feel like I need to dig in more in these conditions because I don't want to slide too far in the turn. Does that make any sense?

Perhaps I tend to lean back too much, like huevon was mentioning in his slide. Certainly that's easy to do on real steep stuff. This kinda makes sense as in the toeside case, you could lean closer to the snow without slipping out because you have more freedom of ankle rotation that way in the binding.

Regarding hardboots, I'd like to try that sometime, but I don't want to look at that as a solution to this issue. There are certainly people out there who are not having problems with this in soft boots, so I know there's got to be something I can do to improve on this.

John Dahl wrote:
Rather than stop on the heelside, why not slow down and hook uphill at the last bit and then snap the board around to the toeside.

As mentioned above, the problem for me is not the final stop, it's the slowing down before the stop. Once I get to the end of the turn in control I usually do what you're suggesting.

bcrider wrote:
Next time you are at the ski resort take a look at the boarders getting off the lifts. 95% of them will be on their asses but the good ones don't need to sit down to put their bindings on.

Ah. Guess I must not be good then. :) Actually I rather like sitting down to put on my bindings, and I like sitting down on the hill. I also like wearing my pants low with my ass crack showing and wearing a beanie instead of a helmet. I think I look cool dammit. (OK, well the part about liking sitting down to put on bindings was true...)


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 Post subject: Hmmm....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Sounds like bending the board helps bring more of the edge into contact with the "snow". You mention that you start to slip right after the apex of the turn, ie, when there is less pressure on the edge and the camber raises the depth of the sidecut away from the slope. I would suggest holding the edge further (longer). Let the whole board finish the turn completely. If you are still facing down the fall line when you unweight the edge, its no wonder you slip as you try to move the tip back across the fall line. Well... thats what it sounds like anyway :P


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:54 pm 
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jimw wrote:
one thing I mentioned in the original post was that pushing my knees together to flex the board seems to help. Also, keeping the knees more bent than I would normally seems to help as well.


How about narrowing up your stance some or maybe widening it? I tried to run a narrower stance on my split to help initiate turns and such but I found the exact opposite to be true. Narrowing your stance will help put your CG more in the center of the board and help flex it but I had a hard time holding edge at higher speeds once I was at the apex of the turn throttling out. I decided to throw mine out a little wider. I was getting leg fatigue while riding and I didn't feel like I was getting 100% edge hold. Went to about a 1" wider stance and I'm liking it better. mucho mejor.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmmm....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:58 pm 
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Eric wrote:
Sounds like bending the board helps bring more of the edge into contact with the "snow". You mention that you start to slip right after the apex of the turn, ie, when there is less pressure on the edge and the camber raises the depth of the sidecut away from the slope. I would suggest holding the edge further (longer). Let the whole board finish the turn completely. If you are still facing down the fall line when you unweight the edge, its no wonder you slip as you try to move the tip back across the fall line. Well... thats what it sounds like anyway :P

I think I'm not explaining this right. :? It's after the apex of the turn where you normally are pushing the edge the hardest. Definitely not talking about the point where I *unweight* the edge. So I have plenty of weight on the edge, the problem is I'm having a hard time applying enough pressure w/o slipping out (at least on the steeps in fairly firm snow). I feel like I can dig in a lot harder toeside.

mtnrider I may try the wider stance idea. I still just have a nagging feeling that it's something about my technique but nothing rings any bells so far...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:07 pm 
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I'm pushing the edge the hardest just before and during the apex of a turn

This part :arrow: C

I then unweight just at the end of the turn, flip from edge to edge, and repeat. If I'm stopping, or not switching edges, I effectivly unweight the edge as if I were to flip laterally. If my turn looks like ( instead of C I can get edge drift as my tail worms around to catch up with my cross-fallline nose.

I may be off still, but if bending your knees together is helping, you are effectivly decambering the board "as if" the board were in the apex part of the :arrow: C. Widening my stance certainly helped with balance, but 'm not sure how it could help de-cambering a board.

Not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to work it out myself :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:36 pm 
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I see what you're saying...

OK, more clarification. In the situations where I'm more likely to slip out, I'm using doing more jump turning than "linking" turns or carving. I normally do this on slopes where it's real steep, narrow, and firm. In these situations, for me, "normal" turns will not slow me down enough to stay in control, and let's assume there's a good reason I can't just point it (other than being a wuss!). When I'm linking normal turns, I'm doing the "C's" like you're talking about, and no problem there. Though I think that in this case I'm usually edging hardest *through* the apex, so the middle part of the "C" (maybe that's what you're saying too). I guess in the jump turn case, I'm doing more of a "J". The start of the jump effectively kind of skips the top part of the "C".

Here's a visual of what I'm talking about. Check out this video from the Conness/North Peak trip (no, this is not shameless advertising! :))

http://www.splitboard.com/vids/Conness050626.wmv

In the beginning clip, where I'm riding behind bcrider down Conness Glacier, that's what I'm considering the "normal turns", connecting the "C's". No problem there.

Go to about 1:30, where bcrider is coming down Fruitcake chute. Most of those are jump turns. That's where I'm talking about having the slipping issue. You can see where he turns heelside, the board is almost all the way into the turn by the time it is actually digging into the snow.

An example of the slippage is at 3:15, though the helmet cam doesn't give the best angle. I jump turn to heelside, and slip out for a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:00 am 
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Sit down farther into the turn.... bend more at the knees with your weight centered over the board. Your ass should be over your heelside edge, if not a little past it.

You can tell that you're bending at your waist instead of at your knees, in the video, because you flail your hands out in front of you to try and balance.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:11 am 
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I agree with Zach.

Head up, stand tall at the waist this will throw you all out of wack if not, definitely bend your knees more and keep your shoulders more parallel to the slope angle.
The faster and more agressive you want to ride, the more you'll want to emphasize the above.

This is a great discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:28 am 
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Oddly enough, I had the exact same problem, until I switched to hard boots. 2 things about hard boots helped alleviate it:

1. Generally increased focus on using my entire legs as suspension

2. Stance... I found that an aggressive, forward stance is more natural for me and makes it easier to squat correctly. Try this exercise: load a squat bar with about 10lbs on each side, then do 40 squats with your eyes closed (***NOTE - make sure you are wearing a hip belt and have a spotter for this). At the end of your squats, look at where your feet are positioned. This is your natural stance position. My feet came out square with my shoulders and straight forward.

Zach

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:25 am 
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Is it driving anyone else nuts to talk about this stuff in so much detail... makes my jonesing for snow season so, so much worse. :shock:

Cuz if this discussion was happening on the slopes, my first comment would be JUST RIP IT! TEAR THAT SHIT UP, AND I'LL SEE YOU AT THE BOTTOM!

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Me llaman el desaparecido
que cuando llega ya se ha ido
volando vengo volando voy
de prisa de prisa rumbo perdido


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