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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:55 am 
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Location: Reno
I've never seen a hardbooter ride a duck stance.... I can't imagine it would work. Conversely, soft boots don't really work above 40 degrees or so... at these angles, you need a stiffer cuff to transfer power to the edges.

Like I said, your boot and binding choice has a lot to do with your balance and physiology. If I tried to ride in a duck stance, I would end up on my face a lot.

Zach

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:08 am 
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Location: Reno
huevon wrote:
I am a hardbooter by necessity due to the terrain I travel, mostly because I have to climb tricky stuff.

But to further the analogies, look at bikes. The sickest mountain biking is done on bikes that are precisely designed not to be as stiff and responsive as possible. On the contrary, they are designed to be soft and flexible, leading to increased performance. Nobody downhills on rigid bikes anymore. You try to rip something nasty, you are jolted and bounced out of control because every little bump sends you flying.

And that is exactly the feeling I get with hardboots. While I have more precise control over the board, and I can hold an edge extremely well on a good surface, when I start trying to check speed or what have you, I find it a lot harder to absorb bumps and such.

Go try to drive your tight-suspension racecar on some nasty mountain roads...

The two other problems with hardboot setups are a) the weight--I just don't feel as nimble with the heavy setup, b) the increased need for a perfect fit--if you stance is not dialed in (which probably requires some shimming) then it make a much bigger difference on a very rigid hardboot setup.


Your analogy to mtn biking doesn't quite work, because the amount of travel possible in your legs is much greater on a board than it is on a bike (distance between your ass and the seat vs. the distance between your ass and your board).

I had the same opinion, the first time that I tried hard boots. 2 things were happening:
1. I didn't know how to set up my bindings.
2. I was still trying to initiate and control turns, from my ankles.
Hard boots require that your bindings be canted and lifted to place your knees in an anatomically correct position. Once you acheive the right stance, you naturally begin to initiate and control turns from your hips. Switching to hard boots helped me to breal the habit of relying on my lower legs to be my shocks (frankenstyle.) I was forced to use my entire legs as shock absorbers... the way it should be in har or soft boots.

BTW - AT boots and plate bindings can generally be lighter than a soft-boot and strap-binding set-up. The only system that truly has a weight advantage is the clicker system that bcr uses. However, you can do better with post-production modifications.

Zach

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:15 pm
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Location: san diego CA
I think it comes from your background. Catjockey said it Himself, he is a skier riding a snowboard with his feet strait. I come from surfing. that brought you skateboarding. That with the combination of ski technoligy brought us to snowboarding. I have to agree with BCR, pipe riding is alot like dropping narrow chutes. You need control and response that allows you to feel loose. All of my power comes from my thighs and ankles. My ankles are very strong froma lot of skateing on ramps, pipe ect. I keep my riding similar. I was thinking about switching to hard plastic boots, but if they dont fel right I will go back to soft boots. I also have another problem to deal with. I patrol and I cant afford two set ups. Now I can say I roam around the hill all day in my soft boots. Picking up the wounded , hauling tobboggans, mending fences you asshole snowboarders tore down ect. Some of our patrollers are skiers and they always have to remove their bots at "bump" for a rest. I can wear my soft boots all day and not get hurting feet. In fact i rang in the new year in my boots in the bar cause my friends would rather drink that ride.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:18 pm
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Location: NW/BC/Montana
Quote:
soft boots don't really work above 40 degrees or so


Sorry, but that's just blatantly false. Not to nit pick or anything.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:01 pm 
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Location: Reno
nomad wrote:
Quote:
soft boots don't really work above 40 degrees or so


Sorry, but that's just blatantly false. Not to nit pick or anything.


Do you ride soft boots with a stance higher than 40 degrees? Many strap bindings don't even have an adjustability range above 40 degrees. Burtons go to 45, and they are the exception.

Soft boots are designed to give more stiffness side-to-side than at the front of the cuff, for the exact reason that soft-boot turns are initiated by flexing sideways on the boots. Above a 40 degree stance, your feet become situated such that to pressure the edge of the board, you have to push forward in the boot.

Zach

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:57 pm
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Location: California
Nomad…you know he's talking about stance angles right? Not slope angles.


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 Post subject: Hahaha....
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:50 pm 
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Location: Western Washington
I guess I'd better give up on dropping cliffs, but I think it has more to do with being 48 than my hardboots :evil: I must be a bit of an oddity, I never skied/skateboarded/water skied etc. etc. before taking up snowboarding. And I started in Airwalks. And ended up in hardboots. And have always felt more comfortable in hardboots on steeper terrain.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:18 pm
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Location: NW/BC/Montana
my bad - I thought you meant riding 40 degree terrain


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:50 pm
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Location: nEAST
Quote:
soft boots don't really work above 40 degrees or so... at these angles, you need a stiffer cuff to transfer power to the edges.


i have riden 45 degree angles with softboots and freestyle strap bindings. well, the front binding was 45 and rear was more around 40. guess what? it worked fine for me. the stiffer cuff would definately help, however. i'll agree, but not necessary.

i got this sick Oxygen supercross 164 just to carve and get good at it when i lived back east. sometimes the park was just too dam icey......even for the east. that's when i broke out my race setup. i never got the hardboot/plate setup because, well, it costs a lot of money. money a high school student doesn't have. that's why i compromised and just rode the steepest anlges i could get without feeling uncomfortable or hinder my riding too much. it did take some time to get used to those angles every day i took it out though. i rode the board probably about a dozen times like that, then i just got sick of carving and going fast all the time. it got boring. i realized i can ride fast and carve with my freestyle setup and be a whole heck of a lot more comfortable. i was just hindered by my size 12's with how low i could go when carving. this is back when there were only about 2 or 3 boards made that were wide enough for my feet.

my sweet board sits in a bag now and will probably stay there. this is the same board i have heard about the inserts ripping out of when there was a hardboot setup on it.

oh. btw. i rock Malamutes. a nice stiff softboot. hardboots are for skiers. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:32 pm 
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Location: PNW
Quote:
Your analogy to mtn biking doesn't quite work, because the amount of travel possible in your legs is much greater on a board than it is on a bike (distance between your ass and the seat vs. the distance between your ass and your board).


You leave my analogy alone you mean bastard! :x hahaha Anyway, you are removing all of the degrees of freedom associated with subtle ankle and knee movement, forcing all movement to involve your entire body. This is fine when you want to commit all-or-nothing to a turn, and it's great for holding an edge statically. But locking down your knees and ankles makes subtle adjustments more difficult, and makes you much more prone to jolty riding on anything besides smooth terrain. Obviously, there are tradeoffs to firmer edge response.

You can almost always tell who is riding hardboots. The frankenstein turn is unmistakeable. Yes this is in part due to poor fitting and lack of technique, but that's not all of it.

Quote:
I had the same opinion, the first time that I tried hard boots.

Huh... the first time I tried hardboots I was in love... but to each his own. Maybe hardboots have gotten worse in the last two years... :roll:

Quote:
Hard boots require that your bindings be canted and lifted to place your knees in an anatomically correct position.

Definitely agree here! -Er-, I mean, I don't believe you, can you hook me up with one of those canting kits, so I can verify... :wink:

Don't get me wrong, I always go with HB's, and I still try to huck anything I can... even if it does look a little less pretty.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:31 am
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Location: Tokyo/Japan
huevon wrote:
Quote:
You can almost always tell who is riding hardboots. The frankenstein turn is unmistakeable.


That is a new term to me, "frankenstein turn". Got any pics to show what that means??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:56 pm 
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Location: PNW
montoya wrote:
That is a new term to me, "frankenstein turn". Got any pics to show what that means??


The characteristics of the frankenstein turn: knees look like they are welded together, turns are abrupt and the board comes around too fast, negating the "surfiness" of the turn (a symptom of not being able to sensitively fine-tune board pressure). Knees and back seems to bounce up and down unnaturally.

(DISCLAIMER: highly-skilled hardbooters can snowboard without exhibiting the frankensturn--most of the time. The trick, as with all snowboarding, is to bend your knees and weight the board dynamically--but this can be especially tiring with a stiff, heavy setup.)

Almost all of the videos on this site have both soft and hardbooters in them. See if you can peg the HB's! (hint: most of them don't ride like bcrider)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:42 am
Posts: 2389
Location: California
Quote:
(hint: most of them don't ride like bcrider)


...or BCD, PJ, Lifelink, JimW, Nomad...

My reason for softboots: It's what I learned on, $$$$, I'm not dissatisfied, and I like punk rock.

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way intending to talk shit about myself, I'm not good enough--but my boots don't have anything to do with it :x .


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