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 Post subject: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Hi,

I am aware of Bomber's new version of the Sidewinder for splitters, and am glad that Fin put in the time to develop this option.
But I am looking for a simpler, lighter, lower plate binding for us hard boot folks. I would love to see a machined baseplate (a la Fuse) where the boot sat directly on the plate, and the bails were mounted to the outside edges of the plate, with multiple mount positions for adjustment. A binding like this could offer a lower boot to board stack height, and reduced weight (even over direct mount toe and heel pieces to the Voile Slider Plate). This binding should make no concessions for touring mode, as it would be assumed that those using it would opt for Dynafit toe pieces on the board for touring mode-this will allow the low boot to board position, even for those with large boot sizes.
Discuss...

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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:22 pm 
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I PM'd Will about this. Perhaps he'll give a shout back.
Here is a (very) rough mock-up of the general idea (the bails are backwards, and the bottom of the slider is shown for context as to where material could be machined for the bails to attach)
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
Simplicity and light weight are primary for me in the BC. I love the general idea! Maybe Fin and Will can work together on the project. I don't think Will has the ability to create the bails, but Fin has tons of experience doing that.

I definitely think that the binding should be designed only for ride mode as, like Barrow says, it should be assumed that Dynafit toepieces are used for uphill travel. If the binding works for tour mode as well, great (seems like it would).

I wonder if the bails could be made wide enough to mount directly to the sides of the slider and still have the hardware clear the pucks. A slightly narrowed puck system (not likely) might be ideal to connect the bails to the side of the slider and still hold the boot securely. Otherwise some fancy bail bending might be in order.

As I mentioned in another thread, the rigidity of this design could be an issue. Barrows, I know you prefer a stiff binding, but I know for me a stiff binding really limits leg freedom and therefore ride performance.

Vibration dampening will also need to be considered, at least for firmer snow conditions. I expect that an AT boot in a bail binding will transfer a lot more vibration and shock from the snow than a softboot on a Fuse binding.

A micro adjustment system will need to be figured out. It will not work to just have a series of holes in the side of the slider plate. They will be too far apart to get a safe bail tightness on the boot.

Nice start! It would be so cool to see something this simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:29 pm 
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buell wrote:
I wonder if the bails could be made wide enough to mount directly to the sides of the slider and still have the hardware clear the pucks.

A micro adjustment system will need to be figured out. It will not work to just have a series of holes in the side of the slider plate. They will be too far apart to get a safe bail tightness on the boot.


These would be my 2 biggest concerns...very curious to see how this develops. Who knows I may just have to buy another pair of plastics (HBs) in the future after swearing them off a few years ago (as mountaineering-only attire). Good stuff fellas, like seeing the tech/options evolve. Cheers

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165 Venture Divide, Spark Franken-Burner, LaSportiva Spantik
163W Jones Solution, Phantom Alphas, Dynafit TLT5
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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:22 am 
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Cool to see these ideas. Here is some more of my thinking:
As far as micro adjust is concerned, I have used a lot of different plate bindings, and one needs adjustment in about 8 mm increments at the smallest: remember an adjustment bolt on the toe lever can fine tune retention force to some degree.
I am seeing a design that has small aluminum blocks which hold the bails, then these blocks mount into the edges of the baseplate via two machine screws. The block and baseplate could have a tongue in groove interface, which would distribute some of the shear forces, so that all the shear is not transferred directly to the screws. By distributing shear forces this way, one could probably use M5 hardware, allowing for closely spaced threaded mounting holes in the baseplate.
Vibration damping: I do not personally find this a concern, there is some in the Voile Puck Gaskets, but adding extra height and weight through adding some kind of damping does not interest me. AT boots do have real rubber soles as well. IMO, best to choose a damp board construction (Venture, Never Summer) if damping is important as this makes a much bigger difference.
Flex: for those who want a lot of flexibility in a binding, the new Bomber Sidewinder is the clear choice. Having the boot directly on the baseplate as we are discussing here will result in less flex between the base of the boot and the surface of the board, this is the whole point of this binding idea as I envision it: it is for people who want their boot sole to board interface to be tight ( to me the ride feel of such a setup is closer to a soft boot feel with tight straps, with the foot to board feel being very direct), and who will get the lateral and medial flex they need out of their boots and not from the binding interface.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:35 pm 
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barrows wrote:
I am seeing a design that has small aluminum blocks which hold the bails, then these blocks mount into the edges of the baseplate via two machine screws. The block and baseplate could have a tongue in groove interface, which would distribute some of the shear forces, so that all the shear is not transferred directly to the screws. By distributing shear forces this way, one could probably use M5 hardware, allowing for closely spaced threaded mounting holes in the baseplate.
Cool! This is sort of what I was thinking of in terms of machining the Fuse channel differently (sans any actual experience on the required adj increments). Good stuff :thumpsup:

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Experts tell me I'm not a serious rider; riding boards that are too long with the incorrect boot and binding setup and I'm not having fun...


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:18 pm 
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Location: Udapimp, Idaho
The sparks plate is a bit wide for AT application but could work with a specially shaped bail.
From looking at the bottom of the sparks plate and the bomber bails; I'm thinking if the plate was made as narrow as possible keeping the standard puck width, with mount holes as close together as possible, any extra micro-adjustment needed could be accomplished with longer threads in the lugs & the end of the bails. With extra threads on the bail ends they could be cut or ground off to tighten up the fit if necessary. As discussed in other threads canted pucks could be used to dial in a comfortable stance.
It could be used with lace up mountaineering boots.
Any slider system will need a retaining pin so a voile style touring mount would still be standard if a dynafit toe isn't used with no alterations to the plate.

This would definitely be lighter than any strap set-up with fewer breakable parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:10 pm 
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I like the flex of the bomber but not the weight. I think we all need to keep working on these kinds of ideas but for now, I don't see it getting better then the Burton race plate adapted to the Viole binding plate. Does any one have mounting and installation instructions for direct mounting my Dynafit toe pieces to my Mojo 166? Specifically, I am looking for information on locating the holes, what size drill bit to use and how deep to drill the holes. I was planning on mounting the Dynafits slightly closer to the centerline of the board then the standard touring brackets. Any tips or instructions would be appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:24 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
foolishrider wrote:
Does any one have mounting and installation instructions for direct mounting my Dynafit toe pieces to my Mojo 166? Specifically, I am looking for information on locating the holes, what size drill bit to use and how deep to drill the holes. I was planning on mounting the Dynafits slightly closer to the centerline of the board then the standard touring brackets. Any tips or instructions would be appreciated.

Spark has you covered:

http://www.sparkrandd.com/products/dynafits/


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Snurfer - If there is room for both a heel bail and a highback (removable?), the binding could be compatible with mountaineering boots.


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Re: Micro adjustments - If the ends of the bail wire are straight, they could be threaded up to an inch away from the end of the bail wire. The shank with the eye (through which the bolt mounts the bail to the plate) could be threaded on the inside acting as a long nut.
To fine tune the length of the wires, twist the shank in 1/2 turns. That along with multiple mounting holes allows for any length boot.
Threaded wires, when adjusted asymmetrically, in combination with footbed inserts allows for canting w/out ordering custom pucks.


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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Location: Whistler, Coast Mtns
A couple of things I've noticed as I've just started using an AT boot/plate set up in the last couple weeks.

In comparison to the previous bindings I was using(Sparks) there seems to be more 'pulling' on the pucks.
The Spark baseplate has the advantage of having an extra cm on either side of the binding distributing force, which is then translated to the board more efficiently. With a 'soft boot' set up I feel like I 'push' more force through the binding, giving more responsiveness. If we are to see a plate binding I would want a similar plate with the extra width to better translate force.


Canting.
I think most are using it in a plate set up. Canted plates or in the binding.

If people are going to use canted pucks with a new plate binding, like the one mentioned above, each plate will have to be machined at the same angle so it could sit flat on the board.
I think this is a must.
If regular pucks are going to be used, then canting will have to be built in to each plate separately.

my :twocents:

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 Post subject: Re: Plate Binding Idea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Location: Whistler, Coast Mtns
Meanwhile if Will isn't going to have Barrows suggestion for next season how about an easy mod of these.

Image

Right now the baseplate holes are 3.5 cms apart but change the them to the standard 4 cms with vertical slots(like the bottom outside ones) and away ya go with plate adaptable baseplates.Just take a slightly different pattern. Trim off some of the sides and they should be the same weight at Voile Plates.





Image
Borrowed these, didn't want to take off the ladders


Image
Ladders, trying to keep the extra weight about the same


Should be quick and easy until there is something else.

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