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 Post subject: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Looking over the forum... many riders enjoy the AT boots in particular the Scarpa F1s. The one thing I notice in the forums is the we, Hard Booters would like to be able to tune the forward lean Softness/Stiffness. and the same for heel-side in our AT boots.

Fin at BomberOnline markets the BTS system for Alpine Carving Boots. see http://www.bomberonline.com/store/boots/BTS_kit.cfm
Fin says:
'Current hardboots have a few inherit flaws:

• They rely on the flex of the plastic shell to act as the spring resistance during forward flex. On cold days the boot can feel hard as a rock and on warm days it feels very soft. Also, this flex is not very linear in its feel as flexing plastic does not make a very good spring.

• You do not have the ability to “tune” the boot and make it feel the way you want it to. Sure, you can get softer/harder tongues but they are still not truly adjustable and they tend to be hard to find for most snowboard hardboots.

• Some boots do have spring systems but some only have a single spring for toe side flex only (no heel side control). We have found from our studies the springs are not long enough to allow for the amount of forward (and rearward) travel the performance carver needs and demands.

Thus we developed the Bomber BTS. With the BTS you can now have multiple adjustments to make your boot feel the best for you. First, we use a 3” (76mm) spring for the toe side flex and a 1.5” (38mm) spring for the heel side flex to allow for plenty of travel in either direction. Second, we offer three versions of each of these springs to allow you to pick the springs that best work for your ability (soft, medium, and hard). And finally, all the springs have the ability to have their pre-load (amount the spring is loaded before use) adjusted with either a 5mm Hex key or an open-end wrench (3/4” or 19mm). This same adjustment also allows you to adjust your static forward lean position. Keep in mind the BTS does not have a “Walk” mode, this system is designed for pure performance and adjust-ability.'

:bananas: Wouldn't be so cool, if someone could modify the BTS system work with the "F1 Heel lever"; which affects the forward lean when locked down? That way the when the F1 Heel lever with BTS is locked down, one could adjust the forward lean. When "F1 Heel lever" is unlocked you have extremely easy walk mode.

Also this modification would not adversely affect the ski-ablity of the boot.
Where modifying the boot by other means could affect Ski-ability (skiing the splitboard) of the boot (by softing the boot), which improves the ride-ability (snowboarding).

If anyone has the skill to try this suggested BTS mod to F1 please reply to this post.

Note; I ride a stock F1 boot with Dynafit toe pieces, with Sparks Dynafit adapters on Snowpro Race bindings (with cants) mounted on voile plates. I was riding Prior Backcountry 178 and just purchase a Venture Storm 163. Currently having a friend split my Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171. I also ride with the Switch X boots and bindings as well. I prefer the F1 boots.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
I have used the Bomber BTS system on my alpine set up since it came out several years ago. I have also pondered the question you ask for the exact reason you mention. A true walk mode and then an adjustable (and quite soft with the yellow springs) forward flex when riding. It is likely possible, but it might require some skilled fabrication to make it go.

My F1s are a bit too cut up to know for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:48 am 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Yes, It is going to take some one with the skilled fabrication skill to make the BTS to work with the Scarpa F1 boot. A skill I do not possess.

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Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm
Posts: 291
Location: kelowna bc canada
Already did it with the zzero 3 boot last year. Works quite nicely and added some weight but not alot as you are taking the existing mech out


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
vapor wrote:
Already did it with the zzero 3 boot last year. Works quite nicely and added some weight but not alot as you are taking the existing mech out


vapor, can you post a photo of your mod?

Thanks, Buell


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm
Posts: 291
Location: kelowna bc canada
ImageImage

As you can see there have been a few mods going on.lol
The bts is homemade with the lower knob specificaly used for backcountry, one position locks cuff forward, rotate 180 and its ready for skinning.
You could use the origional upper cuff but this was easier for the upper bts attachment as well as going for more lateral flex.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
Thanks vapor. Yes, lots of modification. I bet it works well to have the heelside locked out instead of the spring.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Vapor and Buell thank you for updates and pics.

Interesting to Raichle cuff. I have a pair of Raichle HB boots, but I am not will to mode those boots. I will have to try the BTS with the F1s. Buell do you think BTS will work with your F3s?

Very Cool!

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
I looked at Rebecca's Zzeros, my F3s, F1s and a set of BTS. The ZZeros and F3s have an almost identical design and I think could definitely be modded for BTS. As Vapor shows, the BTS bottom goes into the lower boot of the Zzero and I expect will do the same on the F3.

The upper cuff connection will be the more difficult mod. You will pull out the existing walk / ski mechanism, knock a hole in the back of the boot just above the existing walk / ski lever for the BTS. You would then drill a hole for a pin to lock the top of the BTS to the upper cuff. The question is, will the plastic be thick enough to structurally hold the pin and the BTS to the upper cuff. Some type of reinforcement will be needed inside the boot (the pin will pass though this reinforcement). There is room for something so it should not affect the boot fit. There is likely no easy return from this mod if it does not work properly.

Vapor, what were your thoughts on mounting the upper part of the BTS to the upper cuff of the Zzeros since it should be the same as the F3s?

I am really happy with the mods I have already been doing on the F3 and I don't feel a BTS is needed to have a well functioning boot (Vapor might feel differently). I expect, for me, it would just add weight and complexity.

I think the bottom mount of the BTS will mount to the F1 lowers fairly easily. For the upper mount of the BTS, I think you will need to create a mounting bracket (just like the stock bracket) that bolts to the F1 in the stock holes and lines up with the BTS upper mount design. It might not be that difficult. The stock bracket on the F1 is aluminum which is a pretty soft metal. I have previoulsy ground off parts needed for a BTS mod of my F1s and am planning on installing a Bent Metal Magic Cube for the walk / ride mode.

Keep us up to date with your work.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:28 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm
Posts: 291
Location: kelowna bc canada
The lower shells of my old Raichle were at the point of not trusting them anymore so they were the perfect canidate for this project. As these boots are used for 100% of my riding i wanted them to handle the backcountry as well as feeling good at the resort and dont think i could of sacrificed the bts.
Dug out the zzero cuffs to have a look at them to see how much meat is back there and don't think it would work.
You might have an idea on how to do it though.
The first step in this mod was drilling the rivets out of the cuff/ lowershell of the zzero which was replaced with a t nut which is an upgrade in my opinion.This way all the hacking was done on the raichle upper cuff and if things went south the zzero cuffs were still good.
The other concern was the lower attachment.This is a home made BTS system so i'm not sure if Fins will fit in there as it's a tight fit. Only way is to try.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Buell

I am in favor of somehow modifying the Scarpa walk/ski latch mechanism and mounting the BTS on the latch. Then allow the BTS to connect to the lower part of the F1 boot just like the stock walk/ski latch mechanism does, so that the you don't have to mod the boot! That way so you get get walk-ability, and adjust the forward and heel-side lean-tension.

If it works, then we could pitch the such a modification to Scarpa and Fin (Bomber-Online) to make a demo boot. Also could have an application in AT/Rando Racing. Hoe about a titanium BTS? Our best bet for a future Splitboard boot is in design something that works well for the Rando-Racing group as well.

Anyone know a Scarpa sales rep / design engineer?


In other Splitboard posts; mentions the desire for the cuff to flex side ways. I used to own a pair of the two buckle Burton MegaFlex boots (circa 1988/89). The had a feature you could dial-in to allow lateral flex. I just sold this pair of boots last year :( . I not in favor of modifying the boot which can hamper ski-ability.

I prefer the binding to have flex like BomberOnline's "Sidewinder" bindings or use Snow-Pro Race with cants use the Dynafit toe-pieces for going up.

That all said, I am intrigued by your boot modifications.

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Buell

I am in favor of somehow modifying the Scarpa walk/ski latch mechanism and mounting the BTS on the latch. Then allow the BTS to connect to the lower part of the F1 boot just like the stock walk/ski latch mechanism does, so that the you don't have to mod the boot! That way so you get get walk-ability, and adjust the forward and heel-side lean-tension.

If it works, then we could pitch the such a modification to Scarpa and Fin (Bomber-Online) to make a demo boot. Also could have an application in AT/Rando Racing. Hoe about a titanium BTS? Our best bet for a future Splitboard boot is in design something that works well for the Rando-Racing group as well.

Anyone know a Scarpa sales rep / design engineer?


In other Splitboard posts; mentions the desire for the cuff to flex side ways. I used to own a pair of the two buckle Burton MegaFlex boots (circa 1988/89). The had a feature you could dial-in to allow lateral flex. I just sold this pair of boots last year :( . I not in favor of modifying the boot which can hamper ski-ability.

I prefer the binding to have flex like BomberOnline's "Sidewinder" bindings or use Snow-Pro Race with cants use the Dynafit toe-pieces for going up.

That all said, I am intrigued by your boot modifications.

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


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 Post subject: Re: F1 boot and BTS system.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
Thanks for the thoughts Vapor.

Pow-D, that would be cool to put the BTS in place of the stock walk / ski mechanism. Please let me know how it goes.

I do not think that at the lower angles of splitboarding a heel side spring provides any benefit, in fact it could be a detriment. At higher angled (50 to 65*) alpine carving, edge control has more of a lateral component to it and the spring helps leg movement but does not affect edge control as much. At lower angles, the heel side spring of the BTS will likely cause heel side wobbles because it will play a more direct role in controlling edge angle and will be more affected by the forces of keeping the board on edge. This would be less of a problem in powder than on firmer snow. Removing the heelside spring and putting in a piece like Vapor did could fix this likely issue (or at least a really stiff heelside spring).

Realistically, I doubt Scarpa and Fin would care to put their time into a boot that will have such a limited market. We are talking about a small niche of an already niche market. I do not know what the rando racers want though so maybe the market is not so small.

I also like the lateral flex in the bindings and am very excited about the SWs (I am willing to give a little on my lighter / simpler preferences for this). I think that having the bottom of the foot free to move with the lower leg gives a rider more power and comfort than the lower leg flexing at the ankle and the bottom of the foot remaining flat.

My Magic Cubes came today from Spark. I will get them on the F1s soon and post a photo.


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