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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:00 am 
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That BCA site is a great find, Dave! I think the jewel in there is the whitepaper on strategic shoveling.

http://www.bcaccess.com/documents/EdgerlyAtkinsISSW06.pdf

Coulior (RIP) had an article based on this paper last season and I'm not sure if it got enough attention. Shoveling is likely the most time-consuming part of a rescue. Everything I've read and learned spent a ton of time on beacon searching, but offered no substantial advice on the fastest way to dig a hole big enough to get someone out from under the snow.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:11 am 
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I talked with the owner of PS. Seems that Ortovox has made changes to the new S1 that should address the problems I had with it last year. It's supposed to have a much better range too. Coming out in October. I'll demo it and post up what I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:43 pm 
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SanFrantastico wrote:
I'm interested in the pulse for this season, but not because of the triage feature. I met up with ctowles in Jackson last season and he was showing me how that beacon can tell different beacons apart based on small variations on their transmission frequencies. So you can identify different members of your party by their beacon signals. (Yoda - tell me if that's not accurate.)


SanFrantastico - That's news to me. The only feature I know that's related to it's ability to decipher signals is it will default on the CLOSEST victim, but it will allow you to scroll through all the signals allowing you to decipher who to dig for first... it will not favor a particular signal (even another Pulse). More modern beacons have pulse rates on their signal that are faster than older analog beacons, so they will be picked up quicker, but once the signal is aquired, the Pulse locks that signal in and equalizes it will all the other incoming signals. Now it's up to you to use that data to make the next decision and figure who's the closet to the surface (and/or showing "vitals") and thus has the best chances of survival. What's nice is you can easily and quickly scroll through the various signals and simply follow the compass-like arrow to the victim of your choice.

jimw wrote:
I'm curious... about these facts. Where are they stated? I recently bought a Pulse on sale, and it seems like a nice beacon (though I haven't had a chance to really test it out yet). I read through the manual and didn't see either of these facts mentioned. Is there additional info somewhere?


Jimw - I'm fortunate to have inside info stemming from past employment with Mammut and a trip to Switzerland where I had the oportunity to actuallly be schooled on all of the Pulse's intracacies. My teachers were the actual engineers from Ascom... the Swiss company who helped develope the hardware, the software and all the technologies found in the Pulse. These guys covered, in major depth, all the details of the Pulse's numerous features and how they each worked. This was nearly a 3 hour lecture and demo, but it was amazing to learn that such technology had been developed for avalanche safety. I asked a lot of questions and took many notes. I also received some printed data along with a Pulse workbook. Unfortunately your right about this detailed info not being published, so I could be your one of your better resources for Pulse details, so feel to question me any time.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:53 pm 
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Quote:
Seems that Ortovox has made changes to the new S1 that should address the problems I had with it last year


In addition to some software changes, there are some physical changes as well. On the new version, the on/off switch will be located on the outside of the beacon, in addition, they are adding a lip to to make it easier to open.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:25 am 
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Yoda wrote:
jimw wrote:
I'm curious... about these facts. Where are they stated? I recently bought a Pulse on sale, and it seems like a nice beacon (though I haven't had a chance to really test it out yet). I read through the manual and didn't see either of these facts mentioned. Is there additional info somewhere?


Jimw - I'm fortunate to have inside info stemming from past employment with Mammut and a trip to Switzerland where I had the oportunity to actuallly be schooled on all of the Pulse's intracacies. My teachers were the actual engineers from Ascom... the Swiss company who helped develope the hardware, the software and all the technologies found in the Pulse. These guys covered, in major depth, all the details of the Pulse's numerous features and how they each worked. This was nearly a 3 hour lecture and demo, but it was amazing to learn that such technology had been developed for avalanche safety. I asked a lot of questions and took many notes. I also received some printed data along with a Pulse workbook. Unfortunately your right about this detailed info not being published, so I could be your one of your better resources for Pulse details, so feel to question me any time.

Thanks for the info. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of questions for you once I get started using it...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:52 pm 
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there are compatability issues between Mammut and ortovox that i have heard of - mainly between the barryvox and f1. But i have also experienced issues with the Pulse and DSP as noted above.
I think the triage features on new beacons are targeted mainly at the mechanized ski industry. I cant think of the last time i went touring with 8 people, let alone had 8 people exposed at one time

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:38 pm 
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Camgina wrote:
there are compatability issues between Mammut and ortovox that i have heard of - mainly between the barryvox and f1. But i have also experienced issues with the Pulse and DSP as noted above.
I think the triage features on new beacons are targeted mainly at the mechanized ski industry. I cant think of the last time i went touring with 8 people, let alone had 8 people exposed at one time


I think you have missunderstood some of the features of the Pulse. Currently the triage freature is a limited benifit due to the amount of (or lack there of) Pulse beacons and thus users/carriers in the market place.

The major benifit of having the triage feature does not have any baring on the "mechanized ski industry"... please elaborate on this theory. The triage feature is the beacons ability to detect minute motion and thus vitals... if your breathing or your heart is beating, you're moving.

Let me paint a picture for ya - you have 3 buried victims all equiped with the Pulse. You're using a Pulse beacon and have located all the victims signals. The beacon is now giving you an average distance and direction of all the buried victims from your current position. You now move in and pinpoint all 3 victims and find that some are buried deeper than others. In this case you generally start digging for the one that's buried the shallowest and thus has the best chances of survival.

Now think about not only having the ability to locate all 3 victims quickly and the knowlege of their average burial depths, but to add one more element of data that tells you that out of the 3 buried victims, only one (or two) is indicating vitals.

Now if 2 of the those 3 victims are of average buried depth and only one is showing vitals, you now have your question answered on who to dig for FIRST! This is the breakthrough innovation... a beacon that can help you make BETTER life-saving decisions during a recovery.

Viatals = WAY,WAY BETTER CHANCES OF LIVE RECOVERY!!! The only exception to this (which is the golden rule and why not to solely rely on the triage feature if using the Pulse) is to still focus on the victim buried the shallowest. If you have one victim showing vitals, but is buried 3m and another victim not showing vitals, but buried only 1m, you ABSOLUTELY need to start diging for the victim buried 1m... vitals or not!!!

The reason for the Pulse's abilty to max out at 8 victims is two fold. The first reason is the processors maximum abilty to decipher signals at once... which just happens to be 8, more than you hope you'll ever need. The second reason is it's better to have the ability to process too many signals than not enough. Statistically a single searcher can not recover more than 1-3 victims in the time to possibly save them all from asphixiation. But knowing that your beacon can locate that many signals, and thus insuring that no one is overlooked, gives me piece of mind.

Check out this link and look for the Pulse details - www.mountainlife.us


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:10 am 
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like you said the triage feature is limted because there are not enough units on the market. The triage feature is better used in the mechanized industry because the guide or operator can ensure that everyone is using a pulse.

Secondly, from my experience touring recreationaly is that you are very rarly in a group large enough to need to traige a scenario. I ski with one two or three people. Skiing with anymore than that turns into a shit show, and you usually stick to the melllow terrain in that case. If there is potential for a slide, there should only be one person exposed. resulting in the possibility of one person being burried.

Mechanized skiing you are usually sking in a large group. Up to twelve depending on the mode of transit (cat, a-star,or 212).

I think it is a great mvoe by mammut to try to be inovative with technology but in the end you should not have to decide who to dig for and who to not dig for. [/quote]

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:51 am 
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Well, the last time I know of a large group was Splitfest in WY. There were some large groups and some shit did happen... :? Large groups make me nervous for a few reasons...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:33 pm 
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Camgina wrote:
I think it is a great mvoe by mammut to try to be inovative with technology but in the end you should not have to decide who to dig for and who to not dig for.


Thank you for explaining the machanized theory... I will agree that the triage feauture could be best suited for that application due to the greater amount of users at one given time, but that same technology would be equally usefull for a group of three as well. The "picture I painted for ya" from my earlier post clearly depicts the benifits regardless the group size.

This is where I have a real problem with your above response... it doesn't make sense. In a case of 2 or more buried victims, you will ALWAYS have to decide on who to dig for first. You come to this tough decision by pinpointing your victims and then probing for them to locate and confirm an average burial depth measurement. If you have done this process on the victims and one is buried deeper, you should absolutely know to start digging for the one buried closest to the surface.

It's not a question of who to dig for and who not to dig for. In the end you should be digging for the one that has the best chances for survival, period! Now in an oposite senario - if you have located your 2 buried victims and they're both buried roughly equall depths, then this is where recovery priority gets complicated and current beacons come up short... they can NOT help you decide on which one to dig for first. Contrary to your statement, in this case you ARE left with the burden of deciding on who to start digging for first. How could you think otherwise? In this example and any simular example, you have to make that tough decision knowing very well that one may perish... you have no other choice.

This tough decision is what the triage feature on the Pulse is trying to address. The problem is that in this case you now are digging to recover one victim while knowing the other could die. Up to now all recoveries in these cases have been a gamble. The sad part is that in most of these cases the victim that was being rcovered (digging for) has already perished, while the other is still alive, but taking their last few breaths. To have a beacon that can assist in making better decisions on who to recover first and thus possibly recover alive is priceless! Without this feature, the same case senario would most likely end up with two dead victims... past recovery experiences have proven this.

Bottom line... a group of 12 or a group of 3 can all benifit from the triage feature, but untill this technology is adopted among all beacons, it's not the end all feature. The main features to focus on the Pulse are its simple and easy function, 360 degree (compass-like) direction arrow, simplified pinpoint mode and the W-Link.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:52 pm 
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Location: Northern CA
When it comes to single burials, most any beacon can perform well. Multi-burial senarios is where most beacons come up short. When 2 or more victims are buried, most beacon's are difficult to operate. That's why so many beacon mfgs are improving on the multi-burial perfornmance. I try to tour in small groups, but you never know when a slide can occur and even reoccur. We all try to avoid multi-burial incidents, but nothing is for sure in the BC... remember we're dealing with Mother Nature and other BC enthusists in the BC, both can trigger a slide.

If I'm faced with a multi-burial, I'm glad to know I have a beacon that is easy to operate and will help reduce the stress of the situation during the recovery process. Knowing that the Pulse could better my chances of recovering me or my buddy alive is priceless!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:54 pm 
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To add to my above post... if the first recovery is focused on the victim that was showing vitals, there is that possibility that that rescued victim could be coherent and both physically and emotionally capable to aid in the recovery of the second victim... now recducing the digging time in half and furthering the chances of survival of the second victim. If you finished digging for the first victim and found them perished, now the stress of the situation will be MAJOR! Sadly you'll be lucky to get to second victim in time, that is if the chances of them still being alive are still present. This is another testimonial to having the triage feature... it could pay off in more ways than one! Loosing one friend is bad enough, but loosing two or more friends is quite devastating. :(


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:12 pm 
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Location: Northern CA
If you're thinking of getting a new beacon, PLEASE BUY A PULSE SO WE CAN ALL FURTHER OUR CHANCES OF SAVING A LIFE OR BEING FOUND ALIVE!!!

The BEST beacon out there is the one that you practice with and become both comfortable and proficient operating!!! The Pulse is one of the easiest beacons to use and with all it's added features and benifits, it should almost be a no-brainer when it comes to deciding what to buy. As I had mentioned, there's a lack of them currently in the market place, but by commiting to purchasing a Pulse will only increase their abundance in the BC and thus contribute to saving more lives. :D


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