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I toyed with going up there Sunday, but I was solo so I went to the Blue Lake trailhead on Hwy. 20, went up behind Liberty bell. Snow softened up ok by noon, only have a few non-interesting photos-no riding pics. How was the approach up where you went? Enough snow up on Sahale arm for a June trip? Might have to squeeze it in.

There is enough snow up there for a june trip. The end of the road has not even melted.

It dosen't look like the weather will hold up for a return to the north cascades before we head back to montana next week. Sorry Sky.

Oh, and i know what you mean by unfinished bussiness.........Liberty Ridge

How the hell could you self arrest with that set-up? Not ripping your style, seems like you know what your doing. But how do you self arrest with one a tool in your other hand? For getting yourself out of an icy/dicey situation that's a really good approach. But falling and trying to self arrest looks like a nightmare, with stitches.

WOW. way to get after it. I need to get my a** in gear and get up to N. Cascades sometime soon.

I realize that it may not be the best set-up. However, I usually see self-arrest as being a last-ditch effort, where my chances of survival are less than 50-50 (otherwise I would be able to stop myself normally). In such a case, I would not care how ripped up I was, just whether I was alive or not.

It would be somewhat difficult to not get tangled in the 2nd tool while arresting with the first. I was trying to balance the desire for self-arrest capabilities with the desire for stabilization on ice. I would say that the ice stabilization would be most important since it would prevent one from falling into a situation where self-arrest would be necessary.

That said, this was my first time riding with two tools and am open to suggestions or critiques. I'm almost always riding with one or no tools, so this was an exception.

Thinking about it, it might be ideal to have the 2nd tool available to whip out when nearing ice, then stowing it for other times.

2 cents?

I think that a single tool is the best option. You need to get pressure on the pick quickly, and the best way is body weight. One tool eliminates a split second spent choosing, which in turn means less acceleration till you stick it. You loose a fair amount of vert in any fall 'till you slow yourself down, even on less steep slopes. I've proven that to myself However I still am up in the air about which pick. I use a standard mountaineering style pick on mine, had a very experienced guy tell me this was my best choice.

Having a way to stow it seems like the best option. It seems like whatever method you use, it would be useful to practice with it in a more controlled environment first... and it would probably be, um, "interesting" practicing self-arresting with the two-tool setup.

This seems like a market opportunity. Someone needs to invent a glove that has retractable whippet-like picks on each finger. It could have a voice-activated sensor that activates the claws on the words "Oh Shit!" Then just slam your hands into the slope and you're like spiderman!

Seriously, nice pics, sounds like some great trips. That pic dropping into the chute is so great! So was the landing somewhat soft or were you dropping 20' onto 3" of corn on hardpack??

I am definitely not a super experienced mountaineer but I am interested in the topic so here are my two cents...

I like that you hold the mountaineering axe by the head, rather than the shaft. I think that every time I've seen someone snowboarding with axe in hand, the person is holding it by the shaft. It makes more sense to me that you should hold the axe by the head and use the same self arrest technique that you would use if you fell while climbing. So thanks for that - I probably wouldn't have figured out that the head was the better option on my own. It could be that the 'handle-holding' snowboarders out there are using technical tools, but aren't mountaineering axes the tool of choice for self arrest?

Regarding two tools vs. one, I think that being able to arrest a fall is the primary reason to ride with an axe in hand and if you get a higher success rate with just the mountaineering axe in hand, then that's the way to go. If the technical tool only comes into play once you've come to a stop, maybe it is better to rig a way to stow it for easy access when you need it.

Just brainstorming...

I'm no expert either, but I don't quite buy that argument. When you are climbing (assuming standard glacier travel, not actually ice climbing), you hold it on the head because you have to. You don't have the option of holding it on the shaft because that wouldn't be practical for self-belay. When you're riding, either is practical.

So the choice should be based on whatever works best when you're riding. It seems to me like holding it by the head you have more chance of it getting in the way since you have the shaft hanging down. Then again, I could see how it might make a heelside self-arrest more practical since you could get in at least a decent self-arrest position without having to roll over.

Maybe this discussion should move over to the original thread:

http://talk.splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2081

Yeah, that's probably the right place for it, Jimw. I'm not sure how to move the discussion over... Is that something BCRider can do??

I totally agree with your earlier statement regarding a controlled environment. I'm sure a person could answer these questions by donating an afternoon to the cause on a slope with a safe runout.

I think I would prefer <porn_music> holding the head instead of the shaft </porn_music> basically because the pick is on the head and that's where the action is.

I think no matter what, you want to fall into self arrest position with the pick in one hand and the shaft in the other.

If you are initially holding the shaft a bunch of stuff could go wrong. You could freak out and swing the axe like a technical tool and either not get a good bite on the snow or lose your grip on the shaft. If you did think to swing the head into your other hand, it seems to me more difficult to catch the head and grip it well than it would be to catch the shaft. Finally, I think you could get better one-handed control of the pick if you are holding the head rather than the shaft, if it came down to it.

Maybe someone who has arrested a lot would know... I'm just speculating.

I expect the two axe thing would be far superior in situations where you end up essentially having to "downclimb" sections . For self arrest after a fall, I think that having an axe in each hand is a serious liability, but then so is falling...

In an actual fall, self arrest would have to consist of a combination of using your board edges to position yourself for self arrest (not trivial, as you will tend to fall head first) and then controlled use of a single iceaxe with both hands. The single axe lends simplicity and leverage (the two most critical things you would need in a fall).

The pathword ith:
DON'T FUCKIN' FALL!

WWKD....(what would Koch do?)