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 Post subject: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:40 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Colorado
I thought I would see if i could get some thoughts from other splitters on what is needed in the future to develop a Split specific AT ( hard shell if you have to call them that) Snowboard boot. I have been riding the Phantom Alpha's/Dynafit TLT5's all season long, comparing them to my Burton softies and Spark R&D Afterburner Tesla's with stiff Ride insano boots.

I am still liking the Phantoms a lot. There are so many benefits to the system and I have had no trouble after hundreds of hours on them. I consider these a game changer and am very impressed!

My TLTs have been cut up a lot. I cut the top of the forward lean slot to the point that there is no stop on the forward lean. I ride without the removable tongue. Unfortunately my stock liners are trashed to the point that they ripped all the way around the back and are shot. I am too broke to buy a good set of intuition liners right now, so i am temporarily using a pair of liners out of my old DC snowboard boots. They still work well, but there is much to be desired. I don’t feel held back, but i do notice a few things i would like to have

These are the things i want to see in a Split specific AT boot. I imagine a Dynafit TLT like hybrid- Fitwell type boot in the future. Something like the Switch boots that had the high back built in, but as light and with a base like the TLTs. My goal is to have all the benefits i have now, but a complete comfort, adjustable boot that rides just like a regular set up.

1. I want a toe buckle. one i can tighten when i ride, and loosen when i need. i like to have pressure on my toes, sometimes more than others. I know the Scarpas have this
2. Adjustable forward lean and lateral flex. the TLTS are pretty good for being designed for Skiing. But to atleast re-design the high back to be wider and a lot more like a standard snowboard high back is needed.
3. A Hybrid boot that doesn’t look like a fruit boot. I have thought about spray painting mine black!

Any thoughts? I wish I had the time money and skill to develope a split specific boot. There is a bright future in this

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:27 pm
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Location: Rainier Beach
Travis Young wrote:
3. A Hybrid boot that doesn’t look like a fruit boot. I have thought about spray painting mine black!


No way, for the full rando racer style the boots gotta look like aliens developed them in their full neon glory. To match the spandex, of course. :scratch:

I'm with ya, I wish boot manufacturers would make something for us, but until the market demands it I'm afraid we'll be hacking up our rando-inspired hard boots for years to come.

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:22 pm
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Location: Durango, CO
You guys are wishful thinkers! :lol:

Keffler should just make boots next. :wink:

Travis Young wrote:
3. A Hybrid boot that doesn’t look like a fruit boot. I have thought about spray painting mine black!
This is purely just self consciousness ;). Don't worry, at Splitfest we will probably be the majority!


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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:38 pm
Posts: 328
Location: Fairhaven
I'd be really happy with foot width that fit a variety of people. One of the great things about soft boots is that they warp to fit different arch profiles well and I think a hard boot with a soft window at the arch would be much more comfortable than what's out now with little impact on performance for snowboarding.

I don't care as much about another buckle at the toe as I do laces on the liner that go to the toe.

A big priority for me is striking a good balance between firm lateral support when touring (for traversing) that can be released for a medium amount of support for snowboarding.

Extra adjustment is always nice but it adds weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1523
Location: Colorado
I have been backcountry snowboarding in hard boots for the most part of 25 years. During that time I have ridden boots designed for snowboarding derived from a companies' AT boots of the day (Raichle Snowboarder, first version, and Alpina Fun Cat), boots specifically designed for snowboarding (Burton MegaFlex), and, most recently, modified AT boots (Dynafit Zzero 3s, TLT5s, and TLT6s). So far the modded TLT6s have been the best all around boot for performance, with a huge weight advantage over all the earlier boots.
For my riding, I want the lightest weight possible-because we need less stiffness (for the most part) than any skier, I believe a backcountry specific plastic shell boot could work great for snowboarding while being even lighter than the TLT6.
wish list:
1. I agree with Travis that the highjack support area could be a little better implemented. I suspect the best way to do this would be with an adjustable plastic spoiler at the top of the cuff, which could adjust for both height and asymmetric offset. Height adjustment would allow for many riders to fine tune the level of support, and fit to their calves.
2. I do not think mechanical complexity is the way to achieve perfect medial and lateral flex. Ski boot companies already have at the capability to use bi-injection molding to allow for two different stiffnesses of plastic to be injected into a single piece. This could be used to make a cuff which has a very stiff back portion (highback area) while having very soft side sections for lateral and medial flex. I believe a molded cuff could be made to achieve virtually any level of flex desired, remember, right now we are dealing with boots made for skiing, and they are designed to be as stiff as possible medially, and they still work really well with a little modding, imagine what a cuff specifically designed to provide the flex for snowboarding could do.
3. Three buckle makes sense to me as well, but: with a three buckle boot, the mid buckle should be positioned further back on the shell than the lower buckle on a TLT6: this buckle should be positioned to allow for maximum heel hold, then the toe buckle should be over the wide portion of the forefoot. Of course, three buckles will weigh more than two, perhaps they could be integrated somehow.
4. I prefer a separate top buckle and lean mech: the single operation of the The TLT5/6 is nice for saving weight, but there are times when it is nice to be able to adjust the cuff tension and the forward lean lock separately, again, a little more weight traded for better functionality.
5. The lean mech should be micro adjustable for forward lean angle to suit many riders' preferences, and it should only restrict the cuff from pivoting backwards, and have no influence on forward flex, because:
6. Forward flex should be controlled by the boot tongue, combined with the cuff buckle tension. I would suggest that all boots be sold with at least two different tongues, soft and medium, so riders can choose the level of support they prefer, maybe even three different flexes, or optional super soft and super stiff tongues could be made-this is not very expensive to add, as all tongues could use the same molds and just different plastic to adjust the flex.
7. I would want to retain all the touring performance of the TLT5/6, which is quite revolutionary vs older boots in terms of cuff freedom in tour mode. Of course we need Dynafit Tech fittings in the toe, but we do not need the heel fittings. A nice sole for climbing and scrambling, and we are done.

Now, the problem: I discussed the possibility of a snowboard specific boot being developed with a project manager from Dynafit a few years back, he thought the development cost could be around 700,000 EU! We will need to sell a lot of boots to make this profitable for anyone. Most of my needs could probably be accomplished by pairing a new cuff design with existing lower shell molds, which could save significant costs, but we might not get as light a weight as we could with a dedicated lower shell design, also the lower shell could contribute to good boot flex if it was designed dedicated from the ground up for snowboarding.

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:09 am 
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barrows wrote:
We will need to sell a lot of boots


all you have to do is get jeremey jones to ride em and then every kid on the block will have a pair!

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:52 am 
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christoph benells wrote:
barrows wrote:
We will need to sell a lot of boots


all you have to do is get jeremey jones to ride em and then every kid on the block will have a pair!


true story! :guinness:


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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:30 pm 
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Location: Amsterdam
I'm never joining the dark side, and know very little about fruitboots. But let's say you could heavily mod a pair of very light softboots to become hardboots. What is so great about the hardboots? The sole and toebox being so stiff? Obviously you need to have some sort of reinforced back to replace the highback. But is a stiff upper also an advantage?

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 81
While I absolutely respect Barrows opinion on this, I still feel the solution is in a hybrid soft/hard boot. I've been trying out the hard boot thing this winter and I think my perfect boot would be a TLT style bottom half, but cut away up top keeping only the back plastic to serve as a high back. Then the rest being a soft malmute like top with some extra stiffness/plastic on the side to find the medial flex where I can side hill well but flex them hard too. One toe buckle, one ankle, thats it.I know some folks find their modded hard boots near perfect, but I like mine loosey goosey and don't even buckle the top boot on the way down and want way more flex upwards beyond the ankle.

Probably wont happen, but who knows, splitboard products are popping up like wildfire


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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Posts: 394
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
I consider the TLT5s pretty close.

I would really like a softer / smoother / more consistent flex on the diagonals between lateral / medial and forward flex.

Less relevant issues are a bit softer lateral and medial flex and an adjustable forward lean.

I do not need the upper buckle combined with the walk / ride mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:04 am 
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waltzingmatilda wrote:
While I absolutely respect Barrows opinion on this, I still feel the solution is in a hybrid soft/hard boot. I've been trying out the hard boot thing this winter and I think my perfect boot would be a TLT style bottom half, but cut away up top keeping only the back plastic to serve as a high back. Then the rest being a soft malmute like top with some extra stiffness/plastic on the side to find the medial flex where I can side hill well but flex them hard too. One toe buckle, one ankle, thats it.I know some folks find their modded hard boots near perfect, but I like mine loosey goosey and don't even buckle the top boot on the way down and want way more flex upwards beyond the ankle.

Probably wont happen, but who knows, splitboard products are popping up like wildfire


That was my point, it would be quite easy to do this. Just reinforce the sole and add tech inserts to the toe with some carbon fibre. You could mold the highback straight onto the boot too, but you would lose the "adjustable" forward lean most softbindigns have now. I'm pretty sure I could build this and keep the weight well under a hardboot, and the feel of a softboot while riding.
I'm pretty happy with my current setup, so I'm not motivated to do this but it's possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 318
[quote="ieism"]I'm never joining the dark side, and know very little about fruitboots. But let's say you could heavily mod a pair of very light softboots to become hardboots. What is so great about the hardboots? The sole and toebox being so stiff? Obviously you need to have some sort of reinforced back to replace the highback. But is a stiff upper also an advantage?[/quote

Walk mode,no binding on you feet while touring, side helling,
Crampons, kicking up hard snow.

I just got baked from a camping tour with about 8 hrs of ski time. So for me saving weight on my feet and being able to stride while skiing sounds good :thumpsup: . I,m still on 6 yr old fuses and they have served me well but I, mover the pins and the weight. I'll still use my fuses for resorts or side country. I just wish I could buy my phantoms today.
The only question is the down hill? I'm making the transition with some used Siderals. Not sure how these will feel compared to tltsz? With the right plastic and the siderals vertabra tech you might match a soft boot pretty well on the down.


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 Post subject: Re: Split specific AT snowboard boots- Wish list
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:32 pm
Posts: 369
Scarpa should do it. Take the lower from the Alien, cut the all but the back of the highback off, stitch a soft boot on top, sell it a size higher. Downside is the boot is maybe too narrow, too thin a liner for comfort loving snowboarders. eh, nevermind a 3lb or less K2 ACE, clicker or not with a hard sole would end the debate.


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