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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:31 am 
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This is precisely the type of large radius off piste turns I like to make, terrain and snow conditions allowing. It requires a very specialized board (as aptly noted by others above) and good doses of leg and core strength. I will chime in with some specific thoughts about board design (size, taper, scr, flex profiles) when back at my computer tomorrow. In my opinion there are no production splits suited to this style of riding. I second Donek.

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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:56 am 
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I think besides board shapes one has also to point stance and angles. If you stand flat (0-15°) you have to work with toes and heels to get to the edge and it`s difficult to bring enough power to hold it at high speed. If you stand about 40° you can use your knees and hip what gives you more stability and power.

Nevertheless it`s possible - especially in spring after cold windy nights, when the snowpack is hard and plain - to carve in the backcountry also with a softboot setup.


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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:59 am 
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Taylor, did you really just double post so that you could get the top of page two? :lol:


Yeah, large radius turns can be made with longer sidecuts, and boards. I will also go so far as to say that the camber profile of the board can affect this as well. Some companies' rocker profiles cause your turns to slide out no matter what. I would lean more toward full camber or at least flat between the feet.

Personally, I have riden a few Ventures do really well at this because of the torsional rigidity between the feet and a stiff tail. Try out a Storm or Odin in the longer lengths and you'll get it. I rode a 181 storm on steepish groomers and made some pretty nice big arcing turns. I wouldn't ride it every day but it's fun every once in a while.

And if you can't do this in softboots, you can't snowboard.


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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:33 am 
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Posts: 352
:twocents: Buell is right about it being hard to carve groomers when they get choppy compared to skis b/c when you lose your edge, you don't have the inside leg a skier does to hold you up and re-set your outside edge.

I think it's easier in better bc snow to go faster on a board because you don't have two tips to keep going in the same direction which gets pretty technical at higher speeds for soft snow. But you need a nose on your board that won't buckle and won't send you over the bars if your weight gets forward, which is a custom thing like:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57647543@N ... otostream/

Some year I am going to be able to make 5 or 6 of these each summer, for the 5 or 6 of you that would absolutely love them, still working on it. :roll: It'd be a hoot to see some of you guys like taylor, snurfer, buell barrows claymond etc. give them a try.


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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:33 am 
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Location: Colorado
Scooby, always interested in your Preflex concept, but it seems to me the boards might have limited versatility? Can they be muscled into a shorter radius turn, for example?
I need a versatile board, something which can make short radius turns as well, and is still fun to ride in the trees, and in more moderate terrain, then still charge in open areas. I know, a tuff nut to crack, and compromise is necessary at one end of the spectrum no matter what.

BTW, I'll go on record saying camber is not necessary to achieve stable high speed arcs in the backcountry, but the profile does need to be matched to the flex pattern. When one adds any kind of rocker to a board, the flex has to be stiffened in the rockered areas: especially at the beginning, many companies jumped on the rocker bandwagon without understanding how the entire board design, and especially the flex pattern needs to be adjusted to suit the rocker approach, and rocker profiles and flex patterns are still evolving rapidly.

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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:20 am 
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Nut cracked-if snow is good to at least fun. They are not however versatile in that they are appropriate for hunting pow among the widespread ice and wind-damaged surfaces of maybe the alps, front range, PNW volcanoes. They are my everyday Wasatch boards since the late 90s but I don't go climb if good snow, pow or spring, is not on offer. They are a bit rude in dust on crust, and they don't absorb shocks from hard uneven snow. But they do everything better as long as you sink in to the surface 2-3 inches or more. I'll leave it at that until I can get them under some different feet-if it ever starts to snow properly


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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:47 am 
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And yet another board tech geek.

A critical attribute of a board capable of making GS turns on mixed off-piste snow conditions is its ability to hold a heel turn without folding. (There are few things in the world I disdain more than a snowboard that folds or submarines in a heel turn.)

In the olden days when I was a spry teenager I videotaped myself folding boards on railed heel turns to better understand where along the profile the fold was occurring. Replaying the folds in slow motion showed it usually happening at or right in front of the front foot. But, to our surprise, they also sometimes folded immediately behind the front foot.

Boards that folded at and in front of the front foot lacked stiffness to hold the pressure. Their thickness profiles were centered aft of the front foot, and further back than boards that could hold the heel turn.

Boards that folded right behind the front foot also lacked stiffness to hold the pressure, obviously, but the fold corresponded with a relatively abrupt tapering of the thickness profile between the feet. That fade zone seemed the release zone for board pressure.

Boards that didn't fold obviously had sufficient longitudinal and torsional stiffness to hold the turn, but also had a thickness profile centered at or just fore of the front foot.

While there's obviously a lot more at play than just relationships between profile shape and flex, that ^^^ forward profile is an attribute (alongside long SCR, length, taper, etc) I look for in boards still today. Where the board is stiff and how it distributes pressure according to its thickness profile matters a lot for these big turns; stiffness and thickness up front is key.

...Like this old Glissade, which is a stalwart of stability in off piste GS turns.

profile shot
Image

mug shot, alongisde Burton nugs for perspective
Image

This Donek is totally ace in the big turns too.
Image

The large radius turns immediately looker's left of the gully were made on the Donek. (Bigger even than the adjacent skier's.)
Image

Two things I love about the Donek in big turns: The stubby, stiff, tapered tail (nearly 4 cm) and regressive sidecut (10.5 to 12 in the tail). There's just not much there, but what is there is totally well behaved and reliable. It rides how I would imagine big-wave, tow-in short surfboards ride--way stable at speed, it powers through / barely notices inconsistencies in snow texture that might otherwise be dangerously disruptive, and it ends big turns easily and politely, without trying to insist that we turn all the way back across the hill.

I can't wait to try a Preflex the next time I'm in SLC.

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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:23 pm 
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Mansi wrote:
I think besides board shapes one has also to point stance and angles. If you stand flat (0-15°) you have to work with toes and heels to get to the edge and it`s difficult to bring enough power to hold it at high speed. If you stand about 40° you can use your knees and hip what gives you more stability and power.

Nevertheless it`s possible - especially in spring after cold windy nights, when the snowpack is hard and plain - to carve in the backcountry also with a softboot setup.


By riding 35 deg front foot I am able to open my hips enough to get a good bit more stability and power from my hips and front knee, as you describe. But I keep my back foot at zero for the stability and mobility it affords at the end of a toe turn, slarving, and to facilitate transitions between quick turns while forward-pressuring the board in tighter terrain. My girlfriend is a physical therapist; she cringes at the positions we put our bodies in for snowboarding, especially mine.

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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:00 pm 
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wow... thanks guys for the proper breakdown on the physics of why my slarves keep folding no matter how much weight distribution I change on feet. Im always turning my strong heel siders into buttery half cabs unintentionally, when all I want is to hold that damn edge longer...

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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:06 pm 
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It ain't the board. It ain't the stance. It's lots of riding. As with any other aspect of snowboarding, just do it over and over until it's second nature. No need to over think this.

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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:16 am 
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fustercluck wrote:
It ain't the board. It ain't the stance. It's lots of riding. As with any other aspect of snowboarding, just do it over and over until it's second nature. No need to over think this.


Yup....for the most part. A longer sidecut is essential if your railing your edge on groomers though. I watch pro caliber jibbers hauling ass on groomers at the resort on their 8m 158's and while they can ride well, when they're just making wide open, fast turns they're all just making high speed skids and it looks kinda gay imo. They CAN'T ride an edge at 40 mph on a steep groomer. It's impossible. But my 161 flagship (9m radius) is the best board I've ever ridden and I can make just as fast and better looking GS turns on it than some dude on a 170 with an 12m sidecut who isn't as good of a rider so it's a happy medium of the rider and the gear he's on. But it is mostly knowing how to make a turn.


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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:21 pm 
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fustercluck wrote:
It ain't the board. It ain't the stance. It's lots of riding. As with any other aspect of snowboarding, just do it over and over until it's second nature. No need to over think this.


It should go without saying that if you want to stick turns as described by the OP - large-radius, high-speed carving on mixed, off-piste snow, you must first spend a great many long seasons developing your turning skills, and practicing. That fact doesn't render equipment (boards) or body mechanics (stance) irrelevant. Quite the opposite; their importance increases as, in cases like this, the margin for error thins. Beware of false dichotomy: It ain't either-or... It's both and all.

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173 Rossi Race DIY Swallowtail Split


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 Post subject: Re: GS Turns on firm chalky snow
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:03 pm 
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EBwest wrote:
wow... thanks guys for the proper breakdown on the physics of why my slarves keep folding no matter how much weight distribution I change on feet. Im always turning my strong heel siders into buttery half cabs unintentionally, when all I want is to hold that damn edge longer...


:lol:

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