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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:22 am 
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Sorry Dane, but your response is wrong in many ways. First, I think you might want to read a little bit of this thread before you post here.
To be entirely clear: I am not "uneducated" nor inexperienced when it comes to using the TLT5 for splitboarding and splitboard mountaineering, including snow and (easy easy, M3 at hardest) mixed climbing. I have ridden the TLT5 as my splitboarding boot since it was introduced. Prior to that I have ridden many other AT boots for split boarding (most recently the Zzero 3s). The TLT5 is not a warm boot, yes, it is warm enough for most folks in the lower 48 if you are always moving, for me, down to the single digits F. Below zero F I would be uncomfortable, and I welcome the additional warmth of the boot. I use the TLT boots for split boarding, not riding lifts, I do not really do much lift served riding these days. Perhaps you do not want a little more warmth, I do. And the Intuition liner in mine (not the heavier Pro Tour, but the Freeride model) added considerable warmth. BTW, I used to work as a boot fitter, so I do know how to get a good mold, and properly fit the boots. I have used both the TFX liner provided with the TLT5, and the TF liner (Palau) which came with my Zzeros. I certainly prefer the lighter Palau made liner, and the TFX liner does not mold nearly as well as the TF or an Intuition.
If you prefer having the very slight sole flex in the TLT5, fine, but in my (considerable) experience that flex offers no advantage for a split boarder, I have used plenty of boots without it and experienced no advantage with it in the TLT5. As to the weight difference, OK, it is what it is, and that is still the only downside I see with the 6 vs 5. I am curious for what reason you prefer to have the toe flex? Is it for increased sensitivity in mixed climbing? Walking comfort? I have found no advantage with it, but I do not do any hard climbing with it, just steep snow, maybe a short section of easy ice, and the odd bit of easy rock one might find in typical split board mountaineering situations.
It sounds like you are concerned about the additional stiffness in the 6, which is caused by the reinforcements in the new liner? As I mentioned in my post, more than once, I do not consider that a problem, as in any case I will be using an Intuition liner of my choice. Splitboard riding performance is going to be governed by how much flex one can get out of the cuff of the boot: this is the same for the 5 and 6, as the pebax cuff has not changed in the "mountain" model boot.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:21 am 
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Dane wrote:

> The Dynafit Mountain was also never available in the US with the lighter (and better) Palau made TF liners

>That is true but theTF liners alone have been available on occasion as is the Palau DyNA/PDG liner that will work in the TLT Series as well and only 150g.

>you could only get the heavy and less moldable TF-X liners



My TLT 5 mtn came with the palau liner, purchased last year from backcountry.com. not sure how this happened as ever other TLT 5 I have seen has the stock thicker liner. Too be honest I kind of wish it had the stock line the palau has packed out a lot, is really thin, and fucking cold.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:42 am 
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First up. I know I came in and pissed in the cheerios this morning. My apologies for that. But some of your info was bad. That happens. There are opionions..we all have them. And real data. Can't fudge the last. Makes you look bad :) (see previous post)

I wasn't looking for a slug fest here. Just trying to square away the bad info as I have no dog in the snowboard thing.

I'll bend over back words to swallow anything you want to say about snow boarding. But if you get it wrong on the boots...dude..you pay the price of a public whipping if required :cry:

More?

>The TLT5 is not a warm boot, yes, it is warm enough for most folks in the lower 48 if you are always moving, for me, down to the single digits F. Below zero F I would be uncomfortable, and I welcome the additional warmth of the boot. I use the TLT boots for split boarding, not riding lifts

Cool, glad that is squared away. Skiers obviously find them warmer than split boarders. Reasons are obvious I would think. Skiers riding lifts bitch all the time about the cold TLTs.

> And the Intuition liner in mine (not the heavier Pro Tour, but the Freeride model) added considerable warmth.

Nice so what EXACTLY is the weight of your Intuition liner? All the Intuition liners with a tongue are afaik heavier than a Pro Tour. Not mentioning the fact that you loose a good bit of the mobility offered with the TLT shell by using that liner. The Pro Tour is know for being an exceptionall warm liner. But then all foam liners are.

> BTW, I used to work as a boot fitter, so I do know how to get a good mold, and properly fit the boots.

OKAY then :)

> I have used both the TFX liner provided with the TLT5, and the TF liner (Palau) which came with my Zzeros.

Zzero TF liner is no where near an ACTUAL TF liner specifically made for the TLT btw. I am just now beginning to understand your confusion. Might be easy to mistake thinking all TF liners are the same.

> I certainly prefer the lighter Palau made liner, and the TFX liner does not mold nearly as well as the TF or an Intuition.

Ya, the first year, '10/11, TF-X liner didn't mold all that well. Since then the TF-X has been much easier to mold and fit than even the TF Palau. I'll have to assume you had experience with only the older liners. And why the boots come with a new version the CR liner now.

>If you prefer having the very slight sole flex in the TLT5, fine, but in my (considerable) experience that flex offers no advantage for a split boarder

I more clearly understand that now and where you are coming from. And I have never said the additional toe flex on the 5s offered any advantage snow boarding. But when you start talking about going up hill..split board, snow shoes, skis or boots alone...it makes a difference...in my (limited) experience.

You loose so much of the advantages of a TLT's ROM on the UP just with the liner you choose that the additional toe rocker would very likely go unnoticed. No wonder you have cold feet!

> As to the weight difference, OK, it is what it is, and that is still the only downside I see with the 6 vs 5.

I agree...and not enough weight to be any big deal.

>I am curious for what reason you prefer to have the toe flex? Is it for increased sensitivity in mixed climbing? Walking comfort?

Pretty detailed on the tlt boot reviews as to why the flex is a advanatge. Warmth and foot comfort being the most important. It is not a help skiing down hill.

>the odd bit of easy rock one might find in typical split board mountaineering situations.

Not a huge advantage technically on any terrain. Tiny bit more feel on rock for sure. But not earth shaking. It is a warmth and comfort issue. Better circulation in you feet and toes. But not if you are going to strap your feet up in a hard foam ski boot liner not designed to flex or the ROM that a TLT shell has.

>It sounds like you are concerned about the additional stiffness in the 6

I'm not. The [b]ONLY[/b' additional stiffnes the 6 offers in either model in the rigid sole and the added support of the new inner boot. Boot good attributes for skiing.

You have already done something similar by adding a full on ski boot liner to your TLT.

> Splitboard riding performance is going to be governed by how much flex one can get out of the cuff of the boot: this is the same for the 5 and 6, as the pebax cuff has not changed in the "mountain" model boot.

There ya go then! As I said I know nothing about snow boarding. But i do wonder why you would limit the :flex one can get out fo the cuff" by using a ski boot liner (Zzero and you choice of Intiution) iand limit your ROM in the TLT?

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to be a dick. Just asking questions and trying to understand. I applaud the use of unconvential gear to make your sport more fun. People questioned the use of a TLT for technical ice and mixed. And the DyNA for such antics as well plus the really long BC tours now being done on race gear. If the TLT works snow boarding great...more power to you.

I only offered my opinions so that others can make a more informed choice.

It all started here: "Huh? Please re-read my response above as to the actual differences between the boots.

I did, more than twice, and you got some of it wrong :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:49 am 
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Quote:
My TLT 5 mtn came with the palau liner, purchased last year from backcountry.com. not sure how this happened as ever other TLT 5 I have seen has the stock thicker liner. Too be honest I kind of wish it had the stock line the palau has packed out a lot, is really thin, and fucking cold.


Originally only a Euro boot. More of those keep cropping up. The most recent from GearX. My guess is Dynafit EU has been dumping the older boot style and unappreciated liner on the US market. A heat gun or oven will rejuventate the liner and expand the foam back to original thickness. The newest CR liner will work in your boot nicely. Better yet lots of folks would be more than happy to buy you TF liner. TGR would be an easy place to sell them. If they are 29s I'd be interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:05 pm 
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Dane: You are still not getting it. The Intuition liner I am using is the old "Freeride" model. Unfortunately I am not at home right now, so I cannot weigh it for you, but I have compared it to the first model year TFX, and it is significantly lighter. Yes, this liner does not have the flex window at the achilles, but still, I find no significant resistance in long strides on the flats. The old "free ride" model liner was Intuitions softest tongue liner, the tongue is not stiffer than the TFX. This liner saved weight, and is quite a bit warmer than the original TFX, the flex window on the TFX also did not work for me, as the rough stitched edges caused blisters. Yes, my TFX is the one from the first gen TLT5, if the new ones are better in terms of molding, great! I have not received my 6s yet, when I do, I will go over mods and features on this site. It will be interesting to see the new liners in person, Dynafit NA is here in Boulder, and I will be picking up my boots from their office, I hope they have examples of the two inner boots available for examination.

Warmth in general: This has nothing to do with skiing vs splitboarding, it is about the individual. If the TLT5 is warm enough for you, I believe you, you probably run a little warmer than I do. For me it is warm enough, with the Intuition, just barely: I would prefer a little margin for more warmth, and hence I look forward the 6 with its slight additional warmth. Like I said, I am not talking about lift served riding here. It is not warm enough for me for, say, an expedition to the Wrangells or something like that. In that environment I would definitely need a warmer boot to feel safe, but that is a special case. Looking carefully at the two liners available, it sure looks to me like the CL liner will be much better for splitters, lighter, and softer flexing. It is not clear to me whether this liner will be available in US yet though. I am going to try and get a pair of these for 6s, as the CR looks a lot heavier, and a lot burlier.

As for the toe flex, I suspect we will just have to agree to disagree here. I do not need it, and find it offers no advantage. There is no "fact" about this as you seem to state. In fact, you claim that a boot with flex offers a skinning advantage? Really, why? I wonder why all the rando race boots have now abandoned flexible soles then (Dyna, Alien, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:23 pm 
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hey dane,

i like your http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/

we like fighting on this website about boots

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Nice blog Dane! Gear porn becomes crucial this time of year as there aren't any trip reports to get me through my days at the office.

For anyone who wants an EXHAUSTIVE review of the TLT5 vs 6, I'll crosspost here...

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/09 ... .html#more

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Ha, ha, "I don't get it"?

"Yes, this liner does not have the flex window at the achilles, but still, I find no significant resistance in long strides on the flats."

Compared to what? A typical AT boot like the Zzero? Because you have just lost any credibility on boots/ROM/ or how the boot was designed to work. My impression is you simply don't understand the engineering or kinesiology involved. Big words for a few more inches in stride and less fatigue long term.

"In fact, you claim that a boot with flex offers a skinning advantage? Really, why? I wonder why all the rando race boots have now abandoned flexible soles then (Dyna, Alien, etc)."

That is easy...because they ski better down hill without the boot sole flex, but most importantly ....LESS WEIGHT on the up . No hinge= less boot weight. The UP is kinda big deal in Rando races. Ask the split boarders who do Vertfest evey year and get pummeled in the ski track.

Just trying to get the facts out there. Fact is a TLT5 is easier to walk in because of the toe bellows. Takes two minutes to figure that out wearing a TLT5 compared to any other hard shell ski boot. It shouldn't take a graduate degree in kinesiology to recognise that. Get back to us after you have actually used a TLT6 and make your own REAL comparison. You admit your TLT6 comments are all simply speculation at this point. My observations are from being in the TLT6 since late last spring and owning both models of boots and many more styles of liner.

What I am obvioulsy missing is why the hell would you pay for a "TLT anything" when it is just as obvious that any reasonable At boot would work for what you are doing. If it is just the weight drop then you need to buy a decent scale so at least you know what the hell your actual weight drop actually was/wasn't.

Here is why I say that. Knowing well that I love the TLT5 and 6, but for different reasons.

Re; TLT
You aren't really taking advantage of the weight difference by using a heavier liner than required. Likely a less flexiable one as well. Since by your own admission you have not used a TLT TF liner. Likely not seen one either if you thought a Zzero TF liner was a TLT TF liner. Want to drop weight and have a soft tongue and the most flexibilty from the TLT shell? That is easy. The DyNA liner is the ticket. Super flexi and only 150g!

There are warmer AT boots that come with a Intuition liner from the factory. So you can have your "better fit" and be warmer for less money. Scarpa Maestrale would be a good place to start but there are other boots even lighter. Should walk good enough for you and less hassle with the funkly PIA TLT buckles and lock system. I use both so I get to say that.

You certainly are't taking advantage of the ROM offered in the TLT, old or new, if you aren't using a TLT specific or like liner.

By not taking advanatge of the ROM offered in the boot you'll never know how warm it actually is.

But you were right..."you're still not getting IT"

Glad you like the TLTs. Both are great but for different reasons if used as they were intentionally designed.

Snow boarding?!! Hell, WTF do I know? Easy answer. Nothing :)

Feel free to carry on!


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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Dane, LOL! Man, take it easy dude. What is you think a splitboarder does in the backcountry? What I do is the same as any advanced AT skier: sometimes pow laps at a roadside attraction, sometimes touring in a handful of miles to climb and ride big peaks, sometimes doing overnight base camp missions. And the occasion expedition to places like Wrangell/St Elias NP. My experience alpine climbing is limited compared to yours, and I would never presume to disagree with your opinion regarding alpine climbing gear publicly, but it appears you are an expert here about a sport which you do not participate in at all?


You are the one with no credibility when it comes to splitboarding, remember? Your observation that the PDG might be good option for splitboarding reveals that you do not understand the needs of the snowboarder. The PDG has been reported to be stiffer than the TLT5 Mountain (pebax cuff), this is not what us riders are after, now a PDG with a softer pebax cuff could be great, but such an animal does not exist. You do not understand what a splitboarder needs in a boot. The TLT5 Mountain (not carbon version) works better than other boots for three reasons: 1. It tours better than almost any other boot, more efficient, as you are well aware. 2. It is lighter than any other boot which also does number 3 well. 3. It can be easily modified to offer a flex profile which allows for high performance snowboard riding. There is no other AT boot which comes close to the TLT5/6 at fulfilling all three goals. Most other AT boots are too stiff laterally and medially through the cuff and/or tongue (Scarpa Rush), or are very difficult to modify for very soft forward flex (Alien) while the boot is in ride mode. The relatively soft pebax cuff of the TLT5/6 (which can also be easily cut down a bit) allows for enough medial and lateral flex for good snowboarding performance. Additionally, the very soft built in tongue on the TLT5/6 also allows one to achieve the kind of forward flex snowboarders need, while still adequately spreading the load across the shin. We mod the forward lean plate by slotting it upwards to increase the range of forward flex when in ride mode. And, as you well know, the smaller outside dimensions of the TLT5/6 make it more manageable for walking and climbing. Not to mention the super precise fitting heel cup, which is a critical advantage for snowboarding performance. I have been riding plastic shelled boots for snowboarding, on and off, for almost 30 years now, and the TLT5 is by far the best boot which I have ever used for all of the above reasons.


Any AT would not work nearly as well as the TLT5, the TLT5 is way, way, way better than other AT boots for splitboarding. This is why we have such a huge discussion at SB.com about it, it is a game changing boot: I have been split boarding with the TLT5 for three seasons now! I know all about long strides saving energy on the flats, this is one of the big touring advantages of the TLT5. My comparison of the Intuition liner was in the TLT5 in direct comparison to the TFX liner. OK, so there is a tiny bit more resistance when one goes to flex the cuff into the negative degree range, but the difference was negligible: have you tried an Intuition "Freeride" liner with the TLT5 shell? And, dude, the "Freeride" liner is not very stiff, not heavy, and yes, I do own perfectly adequate gram scale (and will post the weight of said liner next time I am home) Edit: I just weighed one of my Intuition "Freeride" liners, size 28; it weighs 270 grams. This is pretty similar to the published weights I have seen for the Dynafit CL, sure hope one can get the CL in the US. Your suggestion of trying the Dyna liner is interesting, but my understanding is that the Dyna is not going to offer the warmth I am after in that it is thinner. Most of the rearward freedom comes from the design of the shell, and not the flex window in the liner. In any case, if I could find a good, warm, light liner with a flex window, which does not cause blister problems for me, I would certainly choose that. I really would like to try the new CL liners if Salewa NA is going to have them in the US. If the published weights on those I have seen are correct, it might be a really good option.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:10 pm 
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lets get russman's opinion

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:12 pm 
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christoph benells wrote:
lets get russman's opinion


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

BTW, I will be trying to get the CL liners (as I agree with Dane that I would prefer to use a liner with the flex window if it is light, warm, and comfortable enough) for my TLT6s, and will start a new thread on the TLT6 when my boots come in. Will give pics, weights, and mods on that thread. Hopefully that thread can also stay relatively short and on topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Tell me how great the TLT is and how I know shite about snow boarding. Hell, I'll even agree. Both are true enough :lol: Get the boot/liner details wrong and not so much. 8) I learned a tiny bit about snow boarding here, thanks for the education.

Glad you like the TLT...so do I. Enjoy the winter and what ever boot you are riding. I will!

If you had only stopped with this:

"The TLT5 Mountain (not carbon version) works better than other boots for three reasons: 1. It tours better than almost any other boot, more efficient 2. It is lighter than any other boot which also does number 3 well. 3. It can be easily modified to offer a flex profile which allows for high performance... "

We'd have agreed 100%. It was all the small details added to support your claim that made the thread a little too fuzzy for me. I actually do think you will like the TLT6. Both are good boots. If you get the chance take a moment to actually try on the PDG before commenting any further. You might be surprised as your current 2nd hand info isn't entirely accurate imo.

done...and gone :bananas:


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 Post subject: Re: Dynafit TLT 5 Mountain, WOW!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Dane: RE the PDG, for snowboarding, the flexibility of the cuff is really important. Not just the flexibility in the forward direction, but how the boot flexes towards the medial and lateral sides. While I have not tried on the PDG, I doubt that Dynafit went to the trouble of using a fiberglass cuff to make it softer than a pebax one would be. Now what could be interesting, is to take the cuff off of a TLT5 Mountain (pebax) and mount it up to a PDG…
The other problem with the PDG is that there is no tongue at all. In snowboarding, the toe side turn puts a lot of pressure on the shin area, generally speaking, it is a good idea to have a tongue to distribute that force, both for control and comfort.
Finally, every review I have found on the PDG claims that it is stiffer than the TLT5 Mountain (but perhaps not the Performance, but as I have mentioned, no snowboarder would choose to ride the Performance version as the carbon cuff would be too stiff).
Flex in a boot for snowboarding is probably a little hard to understand for a non rider: one wants a bit of flex through the cuff of the boot in every dimension, except rearwards. Additional, during snowboard turns the lower part of the leg and upper ankle actually rotate a bit, and a cuff which allows some torsional flex is desirable. The pebax cuff on the TLT5/6 Mountain really helps with this, especially if it is just slightly cut down.

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