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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:25 pm 
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HikeforTurns wrote:
Not going to QB, as this could have easily been me in the news. These guys fucked up. But lord knows I've made my share of mistakes. I think Lou knows his shit though. You can't be in the game that long otherwise. Granted, he also runs a blog and benefits from publicity. However, I think he is trying to help the BC community in his review of this accident.

The QB'ing on this incident is at an all-time high, as one might expect for a multiple burial in a popular area. I think some of this QB'ing is coming a bit too soon, much of it before the bodies were even laid to rest. I dont remember Lou having such harsh criticism of Steve Romeo when he made a final mistake. But in the end, I think the discussion will ultimately help all of us make better decisions in the BC. Thats about all I have on that.

http://www.wildsnow.com/9980/sheep-creek-avalanche-site-visit/


I think this is well said.

Lou addressed early that he did not criticize Romeo because he was too close to him and it was too painful to do. I am not sure why the 'expert' issue managed to go so far on his blog. As HFT mentions, that definition came from media reports. The media seems to attach it to people involved in most accidents. The bar for 'experienced' is low for them.

This is such an awful tragedy. I just hate it when people die in the mountains doing the same things that I do out there. At this point, I would not have put myself in their position on that slope, but as has been said many times, by many people, I have also been in a similar situation previously and got away with it. We all hope we can survive our mistakes long enough to not make as many. These guys were unfortunately not lucky on this day.

Deaths in the mountains always causes a tremendous amount of reflection on my part for an extended period of time after the accident. So many correct decisions need to made every time we step into the bc. These accidents always make me wonder if I will be able to make those decisions throughout each day I am climbing and riding to come home safe. This accident will be with me forever on some level and will hopefully keep me and anyone else who is paying attention to it, a bit safer.

I wish the best to the family and friends left behind by the victims in this accident. It is really a shame to have lost so many good people.


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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:31 pm 
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^
Agreed, but there is something about Dawson's blogging that just pisses me off. There is a lack of humility or something in his tone.

Here's an article Outside just posted.

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:10 pm 
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chrishami wrote:
^
Agreed, but there is something about Dawson's blogging that just pisses me off. There is a lack of humility or something in his tone


I agree! There's plenty of time to learn from this accident and it doesn't have to be before proper respects are given.

The difference between him and the Pope is that the Pope is actually appointed by others. Lou's just a self righteous ski bum trying to stay relevant thru blogging.

I bet he wouldn't be spouting off like a TGR grom trying to promote his blog if it was his kid that perished.


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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:47 pm 
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These reports in the media will always hurt, especially if some you know just passed away and you have to deal with all the nonsense. Been there.

But the Wildsnow report, from my point of view, is mostly trying to educate in choosing a different route. The timing may be a bit odd and it's all a bit weird, but there are some lessons there. How else are people going to learn from this?

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Dawson's tone is undeniably arrogant and his inclusion of certain facts is needlessly disrespectful. Such careless presentation reflects poor judgment. It sabotages the laudable goal of preventing future tragedies by turning some readers off and casting skepticism to his judgment in other arenas--like lessons to be learned.

The public instead deserves a careful, detailed and professional analysis of the events and mistakes made, especially as relates to route selection and remote triggering of deep slabs--one conducted by professionals who are also capable of communicating like professionals to the public.

I'm proud of the splitboarding community's reaction on this forum to such a horrible and haunting tragedy. Thoughts and prayers to the affected family and friends--including and especially you, Shredgnar.

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Keffler and I attended a very nice memorial/get together for innerrevolution in Estes Park last night. There was a nice turnout of folks, and tons of good vibes shared in memory of our friend. It was really good to see a sampling of how many people will carry forth his enthusiasm, positive attitude, and encouragement of others.

As for WildSnow, I am quite disappointed. It appears to me, perhaps, that there may be some residual skier/splitboarder superiority complex going on here: that is the only thing which I can possibly think of which would account for LD's curious and disrespectful attitude; even in the case of the Tunnel Creek accident last year I do not recall LD being so "holier than thou."

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:34 pm 
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barrows wrote:
It appears to me, perhaps, that there may be some residual skier/splitboarder superiority complex going on here: that is the only thing which I can possibly think of which would account for LD's curious and disrespectful attitude..."


Yeah, sadly that's exactly the sense I get too, Barrows.

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:57 pm 
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I didn't care for that write up. He simply states the obvious, in an arrogant way as already stated. Of course were going to learn from their mistake, that's the hard part.


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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:37 pm 
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A very good, new article from the Denver Post, with observations relating to pack mentality. Megan Michelson, who was at the Tunnel Creek avalanche at Stevens Pass last year, weighs in with some comments, too.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_23124 ... -avalanche

BG


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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:37 am 
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thats a crushingly tragic event and my heart goes out to all affected.
RIP fellow shredders.

i think the comparisons to the Tunnel Creek avalanche avoid the fact that the two accidents don't actually have that much in common.
some people seem think the Loveland accident is same same, different time and place... that the lessons from last year weren't applied this year.

From what i read of the Tunnel Creek accident, a large group skiing in a maritime snow pack during a big storm cycle, it really did present some learning opportunities about how group dynamics can lead to blatant disregard of a clear hazard.

From what i've read of this Loveland Pass accident, a group skiing in a continental snowpack with a basal weakness, who clearly were conscious of that hazard and were trying to minimise their exposure to it.... it seems to me that the issues of group dynamics, expertise and experience, and whatever else the choir at wildsnow is chirping off on, it's all very much secondary to the point that these guys just underestimated the magnitude of the hazard and it's sensitivity to triggering.

thats a very simple mistake which most people make in various aspects of life, frequently. In the case of this accident, the low probability of the hazard would make it especially prone to underestimation, and the high consequence results made it especially tragic.
It seems to me that the take home lessons from this tragedy don't have so much to do with group dynamics, systemic shortcomings of avalanche education, expert qualifications, blah blah blah.....
it's simply that we need to increase our safety margins exponentially as the consequences get bigger.

On a side note, which may or may not be relevant to this accident, but just speaking from experience, i've found that while touring on a snowboard, all 170 lbs of me, plus my gear, on a 161 cm stick, there is more pressure, weight per cm of edge, than my friends on skis (+/-180 cms) exert, and it's not uncommon for me to be triggering failures even if a skier or 2 or 3 have put the track in ahead of me without affecting the weakness. just something to think about.

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:18 pm 
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Quote:
karkis:

it's all very much secondary to the point that these guys just underestimated the magnitude of the hazard and it's sensitivity to triggering.

thats a very simple mistake which most people make in various aspects of life, frequently. In the case of this accident, the low probability of the hazard would make it especially prone to underestimation, and the high consequence results made it especially tragic.
It seems to me that the take home lessons from this tragedy don't have so much to do with group dynamics, systemic shortcomings of avalanche education, expert qualifications, blah blah blah.....
it's simply that we need to increase our safety margins exponentially as the consequences get bigger.


this is excellent!!

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Good stuff, karkis. Well said.

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 Post subject: Re: Avalanche kills five snowboarders at Loveland Pass, CO
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Mark (karkis). Right on, I could not agree more. No matter what we do though, these accidents will be seen as similar in the view of the general public, as they both involved experienced riders, and they resulted in multiple fatalities (hence large interest from national media, who tend to not understand the slightest thing about BC riding, despite the excellent NYT article on the Tunnel Creek incident).
The post incident analysis from Tunnel Creek pointed directly at the group dynamic as being most responsible for that accident. I do not think we have enough distance and information to really determine what mistake(s) may have been made in the Sheep Creek accident, I have my own ideas, but it is too early for me to really share them in public. I do not think the group dynamic was nearly as big a factor though, if at all.

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