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 Post subject: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:37 pm
Posts: 139
Location: East of the Cascades, Wa
I have been thinking of trying this out for a while now, but never had the time or all the pieces in the shop. Today was that day though I decided, it was slow and I had to do some minor base repair on the split after a few good days. The theory behind this is to eliminate the slop in the center of the board. I have seen the pins through the touring brackets, but my thought here is to not have to carry and extra piece you have to add to the board (and possibly forget at home or loose). This is probably not a new idea and I highly doubt no one has ever tried this before, but I havn't seen anyone do it or post their results, so I wanted to see for myself how it works.

I personally have never had a problem with the movement in the center of splits when riding harder runs/ice. In the past 2 springs I have ridden the scariest lines I have ever ridden in my life on my split, and I had no problems with how my old split rode in the hard pack (voile interface with Sparks). I took my new split with me to Montana and rode 2 (very long) groomer runs at the end of the day, I could see the board halves separating but it literally had no ill effects on riding or initiating turns. As a retailer and board builder, I hear constantly from people (who haven't ridden a split) about how the boards ride "so much different than a solid". The general non splitting public always seem so concerned with the board halves separate when riding that they stay away from even trying it.

Just recently I replaced a set of ancient chinese voile hooks on an older split decision, the halves were so loose you could literally click the board together. The customer also was still riding voile slider plates and bindings, so I knew that added stiffness in the board from tight hooks would drastically change his ride. He fought tooth and nail with me telling me how it is plenty good and he rides it just fine. Well for his bday I gave him the hooks and said I would do the mod for free, so he gave in and I replaced the hooks. After his first day out, he came back in and thanked me for doing it, and said the difference was night and day.

This got me thinking, I have been very comfortable on my voile/spark setup that maybe I too was getting a little biased about its performance. My new split had seen about 5 tours and the voile hooks had loosened up just enough to notice, and since we just got a few sets of K-clips, it was time to refresh the board.

I went with the very closest I could get the hooks to the touring brackets, a) to be as close to the center point as possible and b) to not intefere too much with the balance of the board in ski mode.
Image

Being in the center-ish of the board, the bolts for the hooks have to be recessed in pretty far. The nice thing though is it makes it super easy to fill with wax
Image

Nice and close, just barely clears when rotating the hook for touring
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Gap check-mucho tighter
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End result
Image

Pretty impressed with how much stiffer the board is now. I did notice a little more weight with the addition of the K-clips AND the extra hook, but my split is still as light if not lighter than the same exact board that I have as a solid with Drakes. Ill report back after I get a days riding in on it when the next storm rolls through.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 385
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
I expect you will find it makes a big difference on firm snow. I did that to my volcano board last spring and it is a significant improvement on steep firm snow. I was using Voile pucks and slider plate with AT boot bindings at the time and the board halves would twist apart in the middle when I put torsional pressure on them through the bindings. The third hook ended that completely. With the solid connection of the Phantom bindings, I do not think the extra Chinese hook will be necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:42 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Seattle, WA
I like this. Do you think a set of K-clips would have worked, too?


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:00 am
Posts: 25
Location: Romania
Try to indroduce an extralong pin thru both touring brackets, of course in ride mode.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:51 am
Posts: 688
Location: Surfing or Splitboarding Downunder
B-P
Just watch filling the holes with wax as your skins will pull it out!
You will need to seal the holes so the core doesn't take in water.
The split pin will work too!

Cheers

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Adam West
Board Designer
FirstLight
+61 (0)413 888 115
http://www.firstlightsnowboards.com.au http://www.splitfest.com.au http://www.splitfests.com http://www.mrbc.com http://www.backcountryglobal.com
Sydney - Nowra - Jindabyne


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:33 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
I'd also be curious if you did a controlled test (say at a resort groomer on hardpack), one run using your hooks, the other run using a steel pin through the brackets with the hooks undone. Is there any detectable difference in stiffness? Personally I'd probably choose the pin just to not have to drill more holes in the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:42 pm
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Location: Seattle, WA
Where can you find an extra-long slider pin that fits through the touring bracket during ride mode? I've seen them, but have no idea where to get them.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:37 pm
Posts: 139
Location: East of the Cascades, Wa
I have not used the pin through the brackets, nor is this a comparison between the two. I had only mentioned it because that is the only option I have personally seen to address the movement between the board halves in the center of the board. If you are interested in those, simply go to a hardware store and buy a long piece of steel and make an attachment point. Its so simple to make, which is probably why they are not commercially available. (although i believe there is a place in New Zealand or Australia that makes the pins). In fact I had located a place with the material, and it was less than $10 for enough to make 2 pins.

I considered the extra holes for a long time, this has been an idea in my head for well over a year and I thought about many ways (including the pin), but felt this to be a great way to accomplish it without having to carry extra equipment. Using the voile hook allows you to easily line up the board with the K-clips, holds the board very tight in the center, and also almost completely eliminates any movement in the center of the board. I have never had any issues with past boards breaking in the middle due to the huge holes and counter sink done for the t-nuts, and if I were to permanently do this mod, I would simply fill the holes with epoxy and I cannot see any long term issues with this addition. I mean really, whats 2 tiny holes gonna do that cutting a board in half and drilling 18 tnuts into it won't do haha!

@Firstlight, this is just a test, and after a day of use the wax is still completely in tact and sealed. If I choose to keep them, I will fill the holes with something more permanent. The wax is a great short term sealant, but will not stay this way after I do some more modification testing.
:thatrocks:

@Swampbuster I found the material at Tacoma Screw

K-clips would work in place, however, the center of my board was VERY tight, and the outside where the voile hooks were had loosened slightly since the original build. The k-clips on the outside sucked it right back together nice and tight, and my main reason for the voile hook in the center was to allow easy alignment of the k-clips. One of my biggest issues with the k-clips is how much of a pain it can be to get the halves lined up. In the field, I found myself having to clip the halves together loose, then align the board, and re-clamp them. After a day I was just over having so much fussing just to click the board together. With this setup, that is completely gone. Its as simple as sliding a voile equipped board together, with an extra snap and the board is much more solid as a whole.

Mostly I wanted to provide an option for customers and friends who end up riding their splits on hard pack or icy conditions. We are lucky to have the option of riding year round, but I will tell you from experience, when its august, there is some really tough conditions to ride! Also a lot of people new to splitting are very hesitant with how much movement is in the middle of the board, although I have never notice or even cared in the past about it, I wanted to address this concern and have an option for those who do need or want it. Basically its the same reason we (Chair 2 Board Sports) have options like water jet cutting and inside edge inlay. Its not something we personally feel is necessary, but its a great option for people who want those features. Since I had never seen this attempted or reviewed, I felt like trying something new, and this is what happens when I get bored in the shop on a slow day haha

:twocents:

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:37 pm
Posts: 139
Location: East of the Cascades, Wa
First ride impression

Even though we just had a fresh 10" dump a few days ago, yesterday yielded some extremely spring like conditions! The low lands had gotten rain (HEAVY rain) and then it all froze. Having fresh skins made all the difference!! Anyways, once we got to the top of our intended line, we found the fresh snow had been completely sun baked and froze solid. By the time we had reached our drop point, the sun had softened up the first 2-3" and made for awesome firm yet edge able conditions. I hesitate to use the word "corn" but it was pretty close!

We rode a narrow ridge line to a pair of fairly open bowls. The board responded exactly as I had intended and felt identical to its solid counterpart (i have 2 of the same boards, both 163, one split one solid). I definitely noticed on traversing and response the extra hook in the middle. There was visually less movement between the halves on the firm snow, and the response from the board was immediate. It was honestly a slight improvement in actual riding performance, and much more of a visual difference.

On toe side traverses and stops, I could not see the board halves separate at all, where as before it was apparent there was some separation of the halves.

Overall I would say the modification did exactly as intended. It made a slight difference in the performance on very hard and steep riding, which translated into a little more confidence in the board in sketchy spots. Most of the impact was visual, as not seeing the halves move makes you feel like its a lot more solid. The end result was noticeably heavier (because the k-clips are quite a bit heavier then the voile hooks, plus obviously there are 3 units instead of 2), and also now instead of tipping up when I pick up my foot, one of the skis tips down. Both easily remedied by knowing that you will be adding those pieces, and adjusting the balance point, but since this board was already built with a perfect balance, I will make do with how it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 1620
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
B-P wrote:
I have not used the pin through the brackets, nor is this a comparison between the two.

I'm suggesting that you actually do a comparison, for the benefit of the rest of us! :) Especially since you said it's so easy to get material for a pin, and you're a board builder and eager to modify your boards but most folks aren't gonna drill holes in their boards just to test out a theory.

I suspect that there is not much difference between the two methods in practice, but I could be wrong. I've used the pin a bit, and it definitely seemed to help in the steep and icy shit that I inevitably end up in when I thought it was gonna be pow. :scratch: It seems that in some ways it could be better because there is effectively more overlap of the board halves vs the 1/2" from the split hooks. The one issue I ran into was that the torque of the pin on the bushings in the LT brackets caused them to loosen. Might not be an issue with brass bushings.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:51 am
Posts: 688
Location: Surfing or Splitboarding Downunder
Guys
The extra hooks is probably a better fix for the board half split issue but it means another 4 holes in your board.
The pin is the easiest way to try and fix the problem as it requires no modifications to your board.
They are super easy to make as well.
Or you can just buy them!
Just ask me for some help and I'll point you in the right direction.

Cheers

_________________
Adam West
Board Designer
FirstLight
+61 (0)413 888 115
http://www.firstlightsnowboards.com.au http://www.splitfest.com.au http://www.splitfests.com http://www.mrbc.com http://www.backcountryglobal.com
Sydney - Nowra - Jindabyne


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:13 am
Posts: 12
Location: denver, co
I've ridden with and without a pin through the touring brackets and can say that I do notice a difference. I prefer the pin, and so as to not forget it I just stick it in my shovel handle. 1 more step in the process but IMO it's worth it. I do like the idea of using some chinese hooks, would be interested to try it sometime.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling more holes in the name of stability
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Seattle, WA
Can someone post a picture of a pin they use? I want to see how they are keeping it from sliding out.


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