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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm
Posts: 282
Location: kelowna bc canada
Knew this thread was going to devolve into a pissing match. Calling peoples equipment "gay assed" or "toys" is bit of a knob move.
I may wear hard boots out of personal preference but i found it quite funny when someone suggested to Kyle during his presentation at the Canuck splitfest that hardboots are better.What he's done and ridden in a soft setup most of us wont even come close that level.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 207
Location: Udapimp, Idaho
BGnight wrote:
barrows wrote:
(for no apparent rational reason)


SOME OF US DON'T WANT TO HIKE FOR 8 FUCKING HOURS TO RUIN OUR RIDE DOWN WITH SOME GAY ASS SKI BOOTS ON OUR FEET.

Now we just need more evolution and competition in the market to lighten them up. Snowboard specific mountaineering boots are the future. They will get lighter and more high tech while maintaining a soft boot ride. They will soon make hard boots obsolete except for people with plastic fetishes. Which is what they are. A fetish.


wow :roll:
Fetish??
I've seen the light, Thank god brother BG came along to show me the error of my ways. I will now throw away all the unbreakable bindings and extra durable roboboots that I've been using for decades and only replacing the liners because I need to repent and join the masses wearing strappy lacey things on their feet.

sad to think the last 25 years have been wasted because the ride down had massive amounts of board response and edging power and wasn't soft and squishy :cry:

plastic and buckles ruining my ride since 87
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1480
Location: Colorado
vapor wrote:
Knew this thread was going to devolve into a pissing match. Calling peoples equipment "gay assed" or "toys" is bit of a knob move.
I may wear hard boots out of personal preference but i found it quite funny when someone suggested to Kyle during his presentation at the Canuck splitfest that hardboots are better.What he's done and ridden in a soft setup most of us wont even come close that level.


I have tried to remain civil in this discussion, only discussing facts, and opinions based on actual experiences, rather than unsubstantiated zealotry. BTW my use of the word "toy boots" was in reference to the Fitwells vs. typical made in Asia softboots, and was meant to praise the fact that soft boot riders now have what appears to be a well made (in Italy) high quality boot option.

I figured we would eventually hear from Brooks, as he is very outspoken on this topic, despite the fact that he apparently has no experience with actually riding a well sorted HB set up.

To put to rest some of his (entirely unsubstantiated) claims:

Hard boots like the TLT5 climb mixed ground much better than typical soft boots, the rolled edges, and soft midsole of most soft boots make any rock work quite sketchy, and the additional bulk makes precise footwork, not. The Fitwells appear to be a big advance in these areas, too bad they result in a system weight which is pounds heavier than a good HB system.

AT boots feature a walk mode, which allows a very high level of ankle articulation, and makes skinning, walking, and climbing much easier. Mountaineering boots feature a low, very flexible, cuff, which allows the same type of flexibility for climbing and scrambling. Soft boots, even the Fitwells, have a high, relatively stiff cuff, which makes walking and climbing more awkward than with mountaineering boots or AT boots. Perhaps some do not understand the huge differences between an Alpine ski boot, and an AT boot, they are nothing alike. The lighter weight AT boots, like the TLT5, and Scarpa's Rush and F1 are designed for mountaineering: that means that walking, scrambling, and climbing performance are all part of the design brief. In walk mode these boots are not awkward on the foot at all when walking, scrambling, and climbing. Suggesting that these boots will not climb or walk well is absurd. That said, I would not do an eight mile dry approach in them, or in any soft boot for that matter, that is where I would prefer to carry my boots (soft or hard, having plenty of experience with both) and have a very lightweight trail shoe on my feet.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:38 pm
Posts: 305
Location: Fairhaven
Last season was my first on a split and I got out 8 days before the ski area even opened, I think I had 30-40 days including the summer season before I took a break for a couple of months and went rock climbing. One of my first days out on the split was a trip up to Heliotrope Ridge on Mt Baker. At that time of the year it was about a 2 mile walk before we started skinning and the day ended with a lot of walking back down what we had skinned up (low snow on pointy rocks) plus the couple of miles of dry trail...

I hate walking in softboots.

That was the day that I was jealous of the skiers in the group and their ability to walk downhill comfortably. Knowing the approach now I would take a lighter pair of boots and carry my splitboarding boots with me until the snow was deep enough that skinning is more efficient than walking.

I think a big part of this is the tolerance of the rider for having boots that bend backwards when riding. Some people are happy letting the highback limit the rearward travel. For me, once my heel stay is bent the boots go in the trash, they are done.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:06 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Mt Shasta
Off topic but who cares as this debate is boooooooooooooooooring.

Zorbing is the way to resolve this stupidity, softbooters go first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Lc8eMX ... detailpage

Have a nice day. Yes I am sick.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:15 pm
Posts: 661
Location: mountains of portland, oregon
just for the record i was highly against hard boots...until i tried them out

sure it took about 1/2 of a run to get used to them but they can shred. ive ridden resort days, dropped twenty foot into powder splashes, and even done some front boards in my hacked up bd primes. Ive ridden them switch from camp muir all the way to paradise. i ride the same angles/stances as my resort soft boot freestyle set up.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 16
Location: Revelstoke, B.C.
christoph benells wrote:
just for the record i was highly against hard boots...until i tried them out

sure it took about 1/2 of a run to get used to them but they can shred. ive ridden resort days, dropped twenty foot into powder splashes, and even done some front boards in my hacked up bd primes. Ive ridden them switch from camp muir all the way to paradise. i ride the same angles/stances as my resort soft boot freestyle set up.

This is how I felt 4 years ago after softbooting for 21 years. Havnt been in plastic biindings since. Just works for me and where I ride and what i do. Soft boot are great too, for some people and some places. My opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:38 pm
Posts: 305
Location: Fairhaven
christoph benells wrote:
in my hacked up bd primes


About that picture of the hack job...

:guinness:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:11 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
I think a big part of the reason folks get so worked up in this debate is that folks from both sides come off sounding like closed-minded assholes to the other side. :deadhorse: For example, I think barrows is probably a cool dude in Real Life, but from my perspective a lot of his posts come off sounding like "well soft boots might work OK for you, but you're probably not doing anything serious, and you've probably never tried a REAL hardboot setup, and if you tried hardboots before and didn't like them, it's clearly because you didn't do the right mods." I don't think that's necessarily the intent, but that's the way it comes off sounding a lot. Then there the other guys like BG and russman (I've ridden with both of them and they're both cool dudes in Real Life) who come off sounding like "anyone riding hard boots can't possibly have any style and that's not REAL snowboarding". Sometimes I get a bit of a kick out of just reading the posts and watching everyone get worked up... but then sometimes it gets old. :)

Anyway. For me personally, I'll probably try hardboots someday. But right now I can't justify laying out the cash equivalent of at least a nice new splitboard setup just to get all the necessary boot/binding pieces, then put in more money and time to do the "correct tweaks", and all of that only to find out if it actually works for me. But I can definitely see some positives to that setup. Watching the original video in the first post, the main thing I noticed was how long Joey's strides were when skinning. I just can't do that with my soft boot setup. In my case it's mainly the highbacks on my bindings, which don't have the negative forward lean setup that newer Spark/Karakoram bindings have... but even in that case you're limited if you boot has a stiff heel stay.

I picked up a pair of Fitwells over the summer and am stoked to try them out this season. I don't think they're the answer for everything, but seem like they should be a nice soft boot/mountaineering option. If I can just do something to deal with the damn overhang issue that is! How do you hardbooters with big feet deal with that? Seems like that wouldn't be an issue for the old-school hardboot setup where you're like 1" off the board and running 45 degree angles, but with folks running park-like stances with hardboots and Keffler's bindings putting you practically right on the board, seems like this must be an issue for some folks. Hard boots seem like they would have more toe/heel overhang than a softboot of the same size, especially if the sole is not as rockered, and if you have a Dynafit setup on the toe where it may stick out a bit further (or a welt for a fully automatic crampon). Do folks ever do any grinding of the sole to give the toe/heel a more rounded profile to reduce the overhang issue on a snowboard?

Anyway, I try to keep an open mind about all this stuff. Deciding how something will work based on specs or previous accepted beliefs can make you miss out on some cool stuff. If I went on specs alone, I never would have picked up the Burton Spliff that I just got. So far, that thing rocks on everything. I'm looking forward to taking that thing down some big steep eastside lines this spring. Looking at the specs, that doesn't make sense... but it works.

Having said all that... I laughed my ass of at this:

Quote:
SOME OF US DON'T WANT TO HIKE FOR 8 FUCKING HOURS TO RUIN OUR RIDE DOWN WITH SOME GAY ASS SKI BOOTS ON OUR FEET.


:)

:grouphug:


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:37 am 
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Location: 395
I think bcd's koflach oxygen with toe bail/highback and ankle strap makes a lot of sense. A lighter fitwell softboot but maybe with a soft plastic (really a hardboot/softboot hybrid) that has good ankle articulation in all directions that uses a separate high back and ankle strap but has a toe bail and dynafit touring bracket. He was/is onto something.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:44 pm
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Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Huh. Kinda saw this coming from pg. 1.

All I have to add is, that was a rad viddy. Vosburgh, you got smoove style. :D


Carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:51 am
Posts: 635
JimW once again hits the nail on the head. I would really like to hear some opinions from big footed hardboot guys. The hardest thing about this is definitely buying a $700 boot and doin a bunch of mods to it, that and the price of the bindings system and dynafit toe piece.

I am of the opinion that I have been snowboarding for long enough that I could eventually overcome any difference in feel between hard and soft boots. In fact, adapting to different boards/bindings/conditions has always been a hobby of mine. I take it as a personal challenge. Therefore, I really do not anticipate hard boots affecting my riding style that much. I can definitely see the advantages of hardboots and find that my main holdback is the cost of switching over. I simply cannot justify that kind of expense in my budget right now, but if anyone wants to buy a sweet singlespeed bike, or some of my other gear at a terribly high price, I might change my mind. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
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Location: Colorado
jimw:

'come off sounding like "well soft boots might work OK for you, but you're probably not doing anything serious, and you've probably never tried a REAL hardboot setup, and if you tried hardboots before and didn't like them, it's clearly because you didn't do the right mods."

As to the first part of this statement, right now I want to apologize if this is the impression you, or anyone else, has gotten from my posts. I never meant to criticize anyone's riding experiences, far from it. Specifically, I know that you and Brooks both have plenty of experience riding in serious terrain. I do not recall ever making a statement here which would have been characterized this way, but clearly, if anyone gets this idea, then I must have stated something to cause the feeling-for that, I am sorry.
As to the second part of this, well, experience does matter here. I admit, it is not easy to take off the shelf AT boots and get a great riding experience. Because of this, usually, only those really committed to making hard boot systems work have the experience of riding a really good set up. But I still feel that most (if not all) of the negative opinions RE the riding performance and feel of hard boots systems comes from riders who have not ridden a well sorted set up. This lack of experience is in direct opposition to hard boot riders, who all have plenty of experience riding soft boot set ups. For myself: I would not ride a hard boot system if felt there was any compromise in riding performance.
Everyone should certainly ride what they want, this is snowboarding after all, and there are many different ways to enjoy the sport. The only thing which really makes me upset about this discussion, is that unsupported, zealous, viewpoints tend to curtail development and innovation. I have been riding since the first boards were introduced, and I think it is shame that we still do not have a dedicated, ground up, plastic shelled boot for freeriders. The boot which could be possible given the tech available could eclipse the performance of all currently available soft or hard boot setups, but this development does not happen, partially because manufacturers (and I have discussed this with them) see that such a boot would face unsubstantiated discrimination/un-acceptance in the marketplace, no matter how good the performance is.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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