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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:30 am 
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Location: Austria
Hey guys!

I did a lot of alpin racing with HB when I was younger and also rode in powder with my GS-Board, it`s possible of course, just a question of good technique. But for splitboarding I would never return back to HBs, never.

But there are 2 things I`d like to see coming as soon as possible:
1. A softboot with a plastic toe cap, for kicking in hard steep terrain
2. The Flow-system for splitboards, it would be easier to get in in steep terrain and in my opinion the best setup for progressive freeriding


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:37 am 
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Location: Colorado
Mansi wrote:
Hey guys!

I did a lot of alpin racing with HB when I was younger and also rode in powder with my GS-Board, it`s possible of course, just a question of good technique. But for splitboarding I would never return back to HBs, never.

But there are 2 things I`d like to see coming as soon as possible:
1. A softboot with a plastic toe cap, for kicking in hard steep terrain
2. The Flow-system for splitboards, it would be easier to get in in steep terrain and in my opinion the best setup for progressive freeriding


Mansi: the boots we ride are nothing like the alpine snowboard boots. Our modded AT boots flex the same as soft boots, and we use them with the same riding techniques and stances. This is what I am trying to get across. The idea that these HB systems are somehow compromised from a riding perspective vs a traditional soft boot set up is just a myth. These setups have nothing in common with alpine free carving or race set ups.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:50 am 
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Posts: 394
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
barrows wrote:
Mansi wrote:
Hey guys!

I did a lot of alpin racing with HB when I was younger and also rode in powder with my GS-Board, it`s possible of course, just a question of good technique. But for splitboarding I would never return back to HBs, never.

But there are 2 things I`d like to see coming as soon as possible:
1. A softboot with a plastic toe cap, for kicking in hard steep terrain
2. The Flow-system for splitboards, it would be easier to get in in steep terrain and in my opinion the best setup for progressive freeriding


Mansi: the boots we ride are nothing like the alpine snowboard boots. Our modded AT boots flex the same as soft boots, and we use them with the same riding techniques and stances. This is what I am trying to get across. The idea that these HB systems are somehow compromised from a riding perspective vs a traditional soft boot set up is just a myth. These setups have nothing in common with alpine free carving or race set ups.


The modded AT boots are also a small fraction of the weight of alpine carving boots. I love to carve in alpine hardboots on groomers but I would never want to use them on a split either. Modded AT boots on the other hand work incredibly well.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:46 am 
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Location: Austria
...I know the developement from the Raichle (Deeluxe) hardboots quite well. About 15-20 years ago they were developed out of standard ski touring boots with a flat base and a walk and a ski option. Than they raised the heels, the boots got brighter (rounder) and higher at the shinbone, they got more buckles etc. It`s clear that you cannot use them in backcountry or for alpinism and that the boots you use are different, my skiing friends use them too. I also think it might be easier to lean forward and to find a balanced position with HBs as they have a hinge, SB not.....At the moment I`m still a HB doubter but maybe I should try it out to feel the difference.....


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Mansi wrote:
...I know the developement from the Raichle (Deeluxe) hardboots quite well. About 15-20 years ago they were developed out of standard ski touring boots with a flat base and a walk and a ski option. Than they raised the heels, the boots got brighter (rounder) and higher at the shinbone, they got more buckles etc. It`s clear that you cannot use them in backcountry or for alpinism and that the boots you use are different, my skiing friends use them too. I also think it might be easier to lean forward and to find a balanced position with HBs as they have a hinge, SB not.....At the moment I`m still a HB doubter but maybe I should try it out to feel the difference.....


I am familar as well. I still have a pair of the original Raichle "Snowboarder" which was the first hard shell boot developed for snowboarding. It actually rode quite well, with a flex pretty comparable to today's soft boots if used with the softer (pink) tongues. I also has sponsorship from Alpina for a couple of seasons, which developed hard boots for freeriding which also rode pretty well.
But the AT boots we use now are pounds lighter than these older designs. My TLT5s with mods and without the power strap weighs the same as my pair of Burton Driver Xs.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:40 pm 
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I see, you know much better than I, so now I really want to try it out and feel the difference :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Location: Fairhaven
Mansi- give it a try. I just made the conversion to hard boots and I doubt I'll go back any time soon. While the boots are ridable the way they are (I can do methods well enough in them and I've done a couple back 3's) I'll work on modding them to be softer and flex in the right directions. It's a little unnerving trying to figure out where to cut brand new AT boots but it will have to happen.

I can post my snowboarding CV too if you need it to trust that I know what I'm doing on a board...

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Location: Durango, CO
How do you "try out" the system without dropping over a grand in gear? That's the biggest detractor of the whole idea for someone who's been riding softboots their whole life. I get the idea of hardbooting for touring, but I'm hesitant to drop a bunch of money on something I'd need to mod, and hopefully it works on the down how I expect. Its a large leap of faith, as you all know for a grand for something you've never tried. I know Keffler's Phantom system is slick as hell though and its cool to see the innovation coming from him. I'm still waiting to hear what a year of touring does with some of the people I know ride the same type of terrain as I do and trying hardboots this year (cough cough thanks HFT).

I certainly like and get the idea, but its hard to take that leap. But, if anyone with a 27.0 foot with TLT5s and Phantoms wants to come to Silverton area for some tours, I'd love to try some out. :thumpsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Location: Wasatch
summersgone wrote:
How do you "try out" the system without dropping over a grand in gear? That's the biggest detractor of the whole idea for someone who's been riding softboots their whole life. I get the idea of hardbooting for touring, but I'm hesitant to drop a bunch of money on something I'd need to mod, and hopefully it works on the down how I expect. Its a large leap of faith, as you all know for a grand for something you've never tried. I know Keffler's Phantom system is slick as hell though and its cool to see the innovation coming from him. I'm still waiting to hear what a year of touring does with some of the people I know ride the same type of terrain as I do and trying hardboots this year (cough cough thanks HFT).

I certainly like and get the idea, but its hard to take that leap. But, if anyone with a 27.0 foot with TLT5s and Phantoms wants to come to Silverton area for some tours, I'd love to try some out. :thumpsup:


agreed, but you can find older AT boots that ride and tour alright for $200-350 bucks and the voile mtn plate(even though it sucks) is $50. thats cheaper than you can get any splitboard specific softboot binding and boot. if you are talking about getting the top of the line stuff then yeah you are going to be dropping some coin. but really not that much more than getting a new top of the line k-ram set up and new boots. and for me I am more scared of investing in that than a hardboot setup. I have been on hardboots for a few years now and honestly I really doubt I would ever switch back to softboots, but yeah it can get pricey I want the phantoms but unless keffler sells them on backcountry.com so I can get my employee discount it will probably be a long time before I own a pair :lol:

the moral of the story is one day a split specific hardboot and binding is the future. when it is available for purchase ready to ride people will sing it's praises, however that can't happen with out years of us hacking up $700 skimo boots, creating homegrown interfaces, and trying to get others to join the cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Location: Salzburg / Austria
HansGLudwig wrote:
Check out Dynafit's ONE boot, similar to TLT5 but wider for guys like us.
Thanks for the hint -- I already read the Dynafit One-related thread, where it reads that this boot is wider.
I tried the Dynafit One today. It indeed is wider at the forefoot, could be wide enough when thermo-fitted, but still is too narrow in the mid of the foot, on the inner side.
It's a pity, really...

Anyway, I'll demo the Garmont AT boots of a friend soon. Their ride mode is very soft anyway. Terrible from a skier's perspective, but could be good from a snowboarder's perspective... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Flo: have you tried on Scarpa? The Rush is a pretty nice boot which should mod up well. We have a Splitboard guide here who is using this boot and really likes it.

"I want the phantoms but unless keffler sells them on backcountry.com so I can get my employee discount it will probably be a long time before I own a pair"

Hahaha! If Keffler were to sell the Phantoms through retail outlets the price would have to rise to about $1000.00 to cover the margin they demand. If one cannot afford them, good bindings can be put together for a lot less $ doing the RacePlate mod set up. Not as good as Phantoms, but still quite serviceable.

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http://protectourwinters.org/
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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:24 pm 
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barrows wrote:
Ecobrad wrote:
So if I don't want to buy a $600 boot to cut on to see if I like it I'm close minded? Maybe I'd be willing to give it a shot if I had super serious mtneering goals or some sort of foot issue. I'm having so much fun in my toy boots that I can find online for less than $200, I just dont see the point. Plus I'm not a good tinkerer, I'd surely thrash the boots while moding them.

I do predict that there will be some sort of God send innovation in splitboarding in the next couple of years. I've seen so much innovation since I started splitting 9 yrs ago with new stuff coming being daylighted all the time. I usually agree with you, Barrows, but not on the lack of innovation. But then again I'm not that into board design so your prolly right on that one.


ECO: No (and sorry if it it seemed that way), I am not suggesting that one needs to try a HB system to be open minded. What I am trying to get across is that the (very vocal) snowboarders who diss HB systems (without ever trying a proper set up), and make claims that these systems cannot ride "properly" are the ones being closed minded. It is these kind of attitudes which hamper innovation, as these attitudes leave manufacturers feeling afraid of spending money on R&D of better systems, and that the fashion (vs performance) oriented snowboard market will reject new ideas without actually trying them.
I agree that in splitboarding there is innovation in bindings, but not in boots (there is still no soft boot with a walk mode which allows reasonable touring flex), or much in boards. Note that the Volant "Spatula" ski was introduced what, 15 years ago or so... It has taken until the last few years for snowboarders to have a similar reverse/reverse design for pow riding. For the most part we are still seeing boards designed for intermediate level freestyle riders at the resort being made into splits. Yes, there are some exceptions: furberg (Daniel had to quit his sponsor and start his own company to get his designs built as his sponsor was unwilling to do it) and Chimera (which has some very innovative protos floating about), and Venture's pow rider the reverse/reverse Euphoria, but if you look at the ski companies, every single one of them has innovative, purpose designed, backcountry skis with tapered tips and tails, innovative rocker profiles, and long radius or no almost no sidecut designs. Have you seen anything from a snowboard company to even come close to the innovation apparent in DPS' "Spoon" pow ski, with its convex base at the tip, highly tapered tip and tail, and almost zero sidecut?

As to costs, you get what you pay for. I see plenty of folks shelling out for $800 Karakoram SL set ups, and BTW: for me, soft boots last one season, at which point they get too soft and broken down to use. A HB will last me 3 seasons of hard use, so the intial cost of entry will be high, the cost of use is quite comparable.

Your pushing really hard for products that have a very limited market. Like many other splitboarders, I want a board that rides well in all conditions, can charge lines or spin and jib, can ride regular or switch, can make tight turns or carve arcs the size of football fields. That's not a Furberg, nor a Euphoria, or any of the other boards you like. The dps you mention is actually a combo of a bucn of ancient snowboard tech. Ever see a Morrow Spoon? None of the first boards had much in the way of sidecut. I was riding tapered boards 25 years ago, but ditched them because I wanted something more bidirectional. It seems like what Jones and a few other manufacturers are doing now is like anti-taper. The reason these things got phased out is because they don't work well, or have limited applications.
Not buying your boot theory, either. I won't deny that they may tour better, but I think a boot such a Spark can evolve into the ideal boot. I get 3-4 seasons out of my softboots (about 350 days). I'll often wear them all day long, including driving and doing errands around town when I'm done riding. They don't need any tour mode, as I don't ride in super stiff boots. And broken binding straps are no more of an issue than a broken buckle on a hardboot.
So again, if it works for you, go for it. But I'm in the camp of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I've yet to be in a situation where I felt I would benefit from hardboots (with the possible exception of kicking steps on Shasta), and I've never been in a situation where I felt a NS with RC was limited in any way.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Lol. You're trying to reason with a hardbooter. :lol:

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