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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:53 pm
Posts: 209
Location: Los Angeles
Try to maintain "ninja position" and round out every turn to the point that you create a platform to stop on and regain control or roll into your next turn. That being said I followed Tex down that day. The line rolled over a bit of a double fall line that was in the shade and had been scraped by 3 riders. I didn't see what happened to Tex, but when I heard that "loud snow" I pulled out my whippets and rolled in toe edge. I did the fallen leaf technique down the rollover for 40' until I was sure I would be able to create that platform in softer snow. It all ways hits me when I have used the falling leaf technique later, maybe 2-300' down, that I could've started turning well before I ended the fallen leaf. I could push it, but I know that it happens when you least expect it.

:twocents:


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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:38 pm
Posts: 394
Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
It is a bit hard to say from video, but it sounds like solid advice so far. Glad you made it out safe, that looked ugly for a few seconds.

Staying stacked over you edge (not leaning back) has already been well covered.

The stiff legs on heelside is one of the most common failings snowboarders. Nothing serious happens in easier conditions and powder, but when it gets more technical the board starts skipping out. On heelside, you do not have the use of your ankles in the suspension system and all suspension is left to your knees and your hip joint. If your knees are not bent enough to act effectively as suspension with your hips, the bump your board just hit will go up into your legs and right back down to the board, blowing out the edge (chatter).

The snow in the video looks way softer than I ride in corn conditions, particularly on steeper slopes. Some people seem to like it really soft though. In snow that soft, it is easy to build up a cushion of snow under the board that will slide down the slope on the firmer snow underneath making it really difficult to lock an edge in. When I have to ride those conditions, I make sure to push the edge through the soft stuff and into the firmer snow while trying not to slide downhill. If you are sliding downhill, you are pushing up the soft snow pillow.

On steeper stuff, depending on snow conditions, I tend to use a progressive edge pressuring. When I come around either on a jump turn or a quick turn, I set the board down gently and then increase the edge pressure by judging the snows ability to hold my edge. It all happens very quickly but pushing too hard straight off can blow out the edge on both hard and soft snow.

It did not look like an issue, but this is the situation that heel overhang and boot out becomes dangerous.


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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:26 am 
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 8:05 am
Posts: 1512
Location: 395
Cool vid Tex! Glad you're o.k. Buell and others have covered the mechanics well so I won't confuse it with more crap.

I watched your turn about 5 times trying to imagine myself making it I think your slide was just the result of a lazy, unprepared turn. And you always want your first heelside turn on steep terrain to be a good one. I still struggle with it and my technique has changed over the last few years. My last aha moment was that day in October a few years back near bloody couloir with the CA crew and watching bcd do heelside turns. That guy is pretty good! Do what he does :P


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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm
Posts: 1622
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
First off, I see that many of the folks who have already responded are already part of your CA crew, and I think we've all seen each other do that exact same thing at least once.

So maybe we should stop riding together. :)

But seriously, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious. Things would have been fine if you had just started out your day properly:

Image

But since that is not always practical in the BC, some other thoughts:

SanFrantastico wrote:
It's always a good idea to follow PJ's advice, especially:

Quote:
uninstinctively lean forward on the heel side


I think Mr. Burt gave me the same advice too. (Or actually maybe it was Mr. Zellers.) On the heel side the brain instinctively fears the big exposure below you. It makes you want to lean back onto the comfort of the slope. But as your center of gravity moves behind the board, it take the pressure off of your heel side edge and and you go for a ride. As Mr. Zellers points out, no one ever actually falls forward over their toes while riding steep heel side, even if the fear center in the brain is screaming from all the exposure below you. The common mistake is to lose your edge by falling back toward your ass.

^^^ This x2. I always have to remind myself to get over the board on heelside turns on the steeps. You have to fight the instinct to lean back into the hill. Broomstick up the butt!

If things are going south, immediately get on that toe edge like bcd and others mentioned. I have toside-falling-leaf'ed my way out of more sketchy, iced up plateau chute situations than I care to admit... but in that situation you do what you gotta do.


bcd wrote:
The problem is that, the only way to test this out is to go put yourself into another uncontrolled goretex slide.

A good compromise is to go to the resort on a shitty, icy day, and focus on practicing this stuff there. It's about as close as you can get to testing this in a controlled environment. I've also taken the axe to the resort on days like that and practiced self-arrest. It can be pretty enlightening. As in, you may find that carrying an axe might be more of a mental precaution than a practical one. You have a very limited window where an axe can help you if you start to lose it. Your best bet is to get an edge under you.


You also mentioned:
Quote:
need more forward lean. i dont think I had any

IMO forward lean is key in those conditions. Personally, I increase my forward lean as the conditions get harder. This is another good thing to practice at the resort in icy conditions. Ride the same slope several times with different lean settings to get used to the difference. If you just crank your forward lean w/o having done it before, you might wash out due to the more immediate heelside response that you're not used to. I also like stiff highbacks for the same reason - great heelside response.


buell wrote:
It did not look like an issue, but this is the situation that heel overhang and boot out becomes dangerous.

I was gonna mention the same thing. I know you and I have the same boot size, and the same board. I am right on the border of having issues with heel overhang, and it is of course more noticeable the steeper and harder the conditions. You might check your bindings to make sure they aren't offset towards the heel edge so that you are getting more heel overhang than necessary. I'm actually considering a wider board this season for this very reason... though the downside of that is that wider boards are slower edge-to-edge, which of course is exactly what you don't want in a chute like this.


BGnight wrote:
My last aha moment was that day in October a few years back near bloody couloir with the CA crew and watching bcd do heelside turns. That guy is pretty good! Do what he does :P

Agreed, that bcd guy is pretty good. :) Just ride like him!


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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:41 pm
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
bcd wrote:
TEX wrote:
please tell me what you think Im doing wrong.


For starters, you went snowboarding in June of one of the worst winters on record....

But it turned out to be an awesome spring/summer! That area had some of the smoothest snow I've ever seen there during any late spring, not to mention June. Hell, my season didn't even start till April... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 1524
Location: Colorado
Looks like a lot of good advice here. I am glad things did not turn out worse.
Buell has some really good points about gently trying to build the edge pressure, while absorbing the vibrations through the compression of the knees and hips-in order to do this and maintain some board angulation, you must run enough forward lean, otherwise you end up in the classic, locked knee position with no ability to feather edge pressure.
Once one lets their backside contact the snow, all bets are off, as their is no more pressure on the edge. As has been mentioned, leaning out, away from the slope is how to combat this. Sometimes I will feel the slope with my leading hand, reaching back, and using it to push my body away from the slope, but one has to be careful about this, as you still want to keep the upper body pointing downhill enough to quickly initiate the next turn.
A board with a longer radius sidecut will really help here as well, as it brings the edge pressure closer to the feet, not concentrating so much pressure at the tip and tail of the board (which is generally what starts the board vibrating/bouncing, as the tip tries to grab, then releases, then tries to grab again, without the pressure ever really getting under foot where it can be controlled).

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 Post subject: Re: Out of Control
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:02 pm
Posts: 740
Location: St. Croix Falls, WI
TEX, I got some unorthodox advice for you. Plant a dildo in your ass, so if you go too far back on your heel edge...You'll get instant "feedback". :shock: :nononno:

Just sayin :thumpsup:

I'm glad your okay.. you're a true motivator my friend.

Keep me posted on your trips this year, brother

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