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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:01 am 
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BobGnarly wrote:
H.R. Flufnstuf wrote:
I'm going to be selling the Stellar that is in the photo in this thread:
http://splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12999

It's the precursor to the Cheetah, and was only available for sale in Japan.

Lovely board, do you have any specs on it?


I'm sorry, I don't. Have no source for published specs, and myself and board are 1500 miles apart at the moment. Length is 163 or 165, cannot remember.

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:58 pm 
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BobGnarly wrote:
Lovely board, do you have any specs on it?


Hey Bob,
Found a link that might be helpful for you regarding specs:
http://philwigglesworth.net/BlogEngine.NET/post/2011/01/14/Burton-Stellar.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:25 pm 
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Location: Colorado
No need for camber here, in fact, I will never again purchase or ride (even if given to me) a traditional camber board, it makes no sense for me. I am a splitboarder and I ride the backcountry, I am never riding traditional hardpack surfaces in the backcountry, as it does not exists, it can be icy, and steep, but that is a different thing than ski hill style hardpack.
Properly designed boards incorporating non camber (think rocker-flat-rocker, or rocker-flat-flat, or rocker-flat-rocker-flat-rocker) are not unstable at all.
"POP" is not useful in backcountry snow conditions, it is for boosting off hard packed lips, which do not exist in wild snow conditions. In fact, if I were to be selecting a board for use at a ski area these days, I would likely choose one of Never Summers Rocker-Camber profiles, as they make the most sense for hardpack riding. I expect we will soon see even race GS boards with rocker between the bindings soon, as this approach makes the most sense for getting good edge grip (consider that camber was invented for skis, where the entire weight is placed at the middle of the ski, not snowboards where the weight is spread away from the center of the board by the width of the stance).
BTW, despite the fact that Jones specs the Solution as having camber, they really do not seem to have much, if any, camber-certainly not even close to a traditional camber profile.

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
I am totally with you Barrows on the rockered boards. On a properly designed board, I have no need for camber, especially in powder. I certainly have no need for any board to have 'traditional camber', where the wide point of the nose and tail is also the end of the camber at the nose and the tail. A board with camber is one thing (I have and will continue to have several), but that traditional design creates several issues with how the board travels through / across the snow.

To be sure, some rocker profiles, flex profiles, and board shape combinations work better than others. Some rockered boards suck, some are well balanced and are amazing. A successful board is quite a bit more complex than rocker / camber.

I am almost certain that fully rocked boards have been tried in PGS and PSL at the top levels and I just do not know of them being raced on. It might have to do with the need for rebound when coming out of the turn to propel the rider toward the next gate at a faster pace. All the current race boards have what is called 'decamber', which is a slightly rockered tip and tail. That design offers much better handling, smoother turn initiation, and it creates a better distribution of edge pressure, away from the tips of the nose and tail than the 'traditional camber' design.


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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Location: Green Mountains
I have no idea what the specs are on any of these Burton boards. Traditional camber, new age camber, super bad ass camber, I don't know. They call it traditional camber. All I know is one of the biggest, oldest board manufacturers on the planet is releasing powder boards with camber. Just food for thought. :scratch:

I can't wait for snow.


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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:07 pm 
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buell wrote:
I am totally with you Barrows on the rockered boards. On a properly designed board, I have no need for camber, especially in powder. I certainly have no need for any board to have 'traditional camber', where the wide point of the nose and tail is also the end of the camber at the nose and the tail. A board with camber is one thing (I have and will continue to have several), but that traditional design creates several issues with how the board travels through / across the snow.

To be sure, some rocker profiles, flex profiles, and board shape combinations work better than others. Some rockered boards suck, some are well balanced and are amazing. A successful board is quite a bit more complex than rocker / camber.

I am almost certain that fully rocked boards have been tried in PGS and PSL at the top levels and I just do not know of them being raced on. It might have to do with the need for rebound when coming out of the turn to propel the rider toward the next gate at a faster pace. All the current race boards have what is called 'decamber', which is a slightly rockered tip and tail. That design offers much better handling, smoother turn initiation, and it creates a better distribution of edge pressure, away from the tips of the nose and tail than the 'traditional camber' design.


Boards do not have "decamber". Decamber is a verb, not a noun. A rider decambers a board by pressing out the camber, i.e., applying pressure to the waist with the feet.

I'm not holding my breath to see rockered boards on the podiums of the racing disciplines.

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Location: Eugene and Coos Bay, Oregon.
H.R. Flufnstuf wrote:

Boards do not have "decamber". Decamber is a verb, not a noun. A rider decambers a board by pressing out the camber, i.e., applying pressure to the waist with the feet.

I'm not holding my breath to see rockered boards on the podiums of the racing disciplines.


I know exactly what I am talking about regarding decamber on race snowboards. It is a widely used term and a very good design detail.

Do a search for "decambered nose" on google for starters.


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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Location: Colorado
802: Burton snowboards makes boards for the masses, and the masses ride prepared slopes at the resorts while in their minds picturing images of pro riders in the backcountry. Real backcountry riders know and understand the differences and choose appropriate equipment, not being influenced by mass culture, and choosing gear which really performs.

HR: "I'm not holding my breath to see rockered boards on the podiums of the racing disciplines."

My suggestion was not meant to assert that a full rocker board board would be on the World Cup podium. But, I do believe we will see race boards with a profile which includes rocker between the feet, and camber from the feet toward the contact points. This approach makes sense,as anyone who considers pressure distribution along an edge will understand. But, this really does not relate to my personal riding concerns anyway, and is just an "aside" observation of snowboard development.

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:23 am 
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Location: Green Mountains
To each his own Barrows, but for argument sake, civilized of course :thumpsup: , It's the larger companies that are going to make the bc more accesible to resort riders who have a curiosity to venture out of bounds imo. I have boards from the smallest manufacturers to the largest companies. I like them all because I love to ride.
I think some of the smaller companies could have cornered the market by now, but boutique boards are expensive. But I understand the need for the right tool for the job, i.e. western avalanche prone steeps, etc. As you know the risks are of different magnitude in the east. You're more likely to smash your mellon on a tree here than get caught in a slide. People here ride and love the free bird. I'm not sure when somebody makes the swap from resort rider to real backcountry rider around here. We enjoy it all! Think snow, that's the main reason we all live to ride on this site.
I know sometimes I mention solid decks as much as splits on this site. But I like all my decks and the stoke of sb.com. With my job I try to ride 5 days a week, If I get out on the split two of those days I'm pumped, but sometimes the snow pack doesn't cooperate either.
Cheers.
Time to jump on the mountain bike. :thatrocks:


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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:24 am 
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802, no worries man! I know we have discussed boards for VT style riding before, and do not need to repeat that here. I was mostly responding to this:

"All I know is one of the biggest, oldest board manufacturers on the planet is releasing powder boards with camber..."

My point is that Burton really does not make "powder boards" at all. They make boards for resort riders who like to, occasionally, ride a few inches of pow on top of hardpack. True powder boards generally do not excel (especially under the feet of riders of average skill level, which is who Burton builds for) riding on hardpacked and/or groomed slopes, and sice Burton designs for those conditions first, they do not really make any specialized, real, powder boards. My furberg is an example of a true powder board-I would not want to ride it on a typical resrt day-sure, I could get around, but it would not be all that responsive or fun. There is nothing "wrong" with this, but what Burton makes is not a good example to suggest that camber is a good idea for a board meant to be ridden in the backcountry.

Now, in the north eastern backcountry the snow conditions are quite different from out west. Because of the often warm temperatures in the east, the backcountry snow can often have a firm base, with a handful of inches of pow on top when one gets a "good" day. So the backcountry is a little more similar to resort style conditions: in those conditions I would probably choose a "Fish" style board, with a shorter length (for the techy tight trees, steeps, and waterfalls and little cliffs), and perhaps, a little camber through the back foot and tail. In the higher elevations out west, the snow in the backcountry is almost never super firm in terms of the base, so there is not that firm, hardpacked, layer to press against, even on bad snow days. We do get those windboard days out here, and the occasional re-frozen surface, but these surfaces are often a breakable crust, with softer snow underneath: a condition where camber makes a board even sketchier, and rocker makes it more forgiving when one breaks through the crust.

As for the race boards, Buell knows what he is talking about, race boards commonly are de-cambered (or "early rise" if you prefer) at the tip, and sometimes tail, now. I suspect we will see race boards with de-cambered tip and tails, then a cambered section towards the feet, and a de-cambered section between the feet (or "rocker" if you prefer). So: de-camber, camber, de-camber, camber, de-camber. This profile would even out the edge pressure allowing for more grip, without the rider having to aggresively bend the center section of the board to engage the edge (bend out the camber between the feet). As mentioned, this profile is similar to what Never Summer does on their Rocker/Camber profile, which is clearly a design meant to perform at the resort, rather than in the backcountry (despite NS' claims of the ultimate versatility of "patented" "Rocker-Camber").

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Location: Easy Street
BobGnarly wrote:
H.R. Flufnstuf wrote:
I'm going to be selling the Stellar that is in the photo in this thread:
http://splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12999

It's the precursor to the Cheetah, and was only available for sale in Japan.

Lovely board, do you have any specs on it?
The product specifications below were taken from a Japanese website:

Overall length (mm): 1650
Running length (mm): 1140
Waist width (mm): 255
Sidecut depth (mm): 20.95
Sidecut radius: 7.76m
Nose width (mm): 299.4
Tail width (mm): 294.4
Effective edge (mm): 1215
Setback (mm): 50

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:38 pm 
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When Buell and Barrows talk, I listen, but I'm always hoping for a more detailed breakdown.

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 Post subject: Re: cambered pow sticks
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:53 am
Posts: 243
Location: Routt County Co.
They are all flat when you stand on them... I'm on the Banana side of this debate. As many of you may be aware my home Mtn (Steamboat) is on the flat side. I used to hate having to decide which board to ride, hated riding tapered long ass boards. Thank you BTX.

PS- F Burton I've been boycotting since the dissolved the Uninc brand, but moving the Open to Fail is just Weak. :nononno:


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