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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:27 am 
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Nice work :clap: :clap: :clap:
Cant wait to get a closer look at your plate to board interface.
I would would very much like to be a beta tester. put me in line.
Taking advantage of 4x4 inserts on diy or solid resort boards is important to me.
how difficult would it be to get 35-40 degree angles?

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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:38 am 
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buell wrote:
Curious, are the toe and heel blocks custom made and you are only using Burton bails or are they Burton toe and heel blocks?

I ride F2 toe and heel blocks direct mounted to the Voile plate (the holes line up perfectly) and was wondering if they might fit on your base plate?

I am really stoked on how solidly it appears to tie the two board halves together in ride mode. We loose so much responsiveness to the twisting board halves with the Voile plate and pucks. It is mostly fine in powder, but on firm snow, it makes a huge difference for edge control. I even added a third chinese hook between the bindings to help the issue.

Thanks, Buell


The toe and heel blocks are and will be made in house. I tried making the design adaptable to the Burton blocks but I couldn't make that work with the rest of the system. However, for those of you who already have Burton bails, I will sell the binding system without bails so you can save some money.

Yes, the binding interface is flat on the board. The design pulls the plate down to the board and also pulls the board halves together.

The last run of the season was on a bullet hard face and I didn't have any issues with board response or flexing that I noticed. I had good edge control and for the first time, didn't wash out on either the toe or heel edge. Could also have to do with the hardboots having a little more forward lean than I've used in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:42 am 
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b0ardski wrote:
Nice work :clap: :clap: :clap:
Cant wait to get a closer look at your plate to board interface.
I would would very much like to be a beta tester. put me in line.
Taking advantage of 4x4 inserts on diy or solid resort boards is important to me.
how difficult would it be to get 35-40 degree angles?


Wow. 35-40! I thought 30 was pushing it.

I could do it, but I would have to make you a custom set, which is doable, but might have to wait until I get things rolling. You might be able to remove some material to make this work, but it might compromise the strength a little.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:24 pm 
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sounds like I could get the front foot to 35+ were it feels right :headbang: .
Been riding alpine angles since 45* was normal on the front foot, gorilla stance hurts my knees.

Hope you can keep the cost reasonable. I'd be interested in the interface/plate and mount the toe& heel blocks
I already have.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:23 am 
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b0ardski wrote:
Hope you can keep the cost reasonable. I'd be interested in the interface/plate and mount the toe& heel blocks I already have.



You might be able to use your toe and heel blocks but you would have to drill and tap your own holes and there may not be the material you need under your blocks for this. Bummer, I know.

I'm working on the cost now. Of course it will depend on how many people want to pre-order and I only have the through put for a limited number of them too.

This project has given me a whole new respect for Will and the Kloster brothers. I know we bitch about prices, but when you look at what you are getting then look at the cost to do business, the fact that they are made in the USA, we are really getting a great deal from these guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Keffler
I have also made a prototype hardboot binding that will get tested this season.
I looked into making a run of 60 sets and the list price was going to come in at USD$325-350.
The feedback I got was that it was too expensive so I have mothballed the plans.
I too have respect for the work the new binding companies do the prices they charge are a bargain for the community.
Good luck and I'm would be interested in seeing what you come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:47 pm 
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It always amazes me how "cheap" splitboarders seem to be? Skiers have no problem paying $600 to $700 for a pair of Dynafit bindings, but splitboarders seem to whine and complain about precision made products designed and engineered to enhance our experiences in the backcountry. Honestly, if one is looking for a cheap solution for riding in hard boots, one should be willing to deal with the inherent disadvantages of the Voile Mountain Plate. On the other hand, if one is looking for the best performing solution, one should be willing to pay the cost.
Dynafit bindings are mass produced in thousands of units for a world wide market. Keffler's bindings are going to be produced as custom, hand made designs, in a small run, of perhaps 30 units or so. I am quite confident in suggesting that it is unlikely that Keffler will be doing much more than covering his costs, even if he charges quite a bit for these bindings. Not to mention the hundreds of hours of development time that he has spent designing and testing prototypes. Clearly he is not doing this to make money, but as primarily a service to his fellow riders, in an attempt to fulfill a perceived need for high quality, high performance plate binding for those riders who understand the advantages of hard boots and Dynafit toe pieces.
I have seen Keffler's prototypes in action, over a number of shared days splittin' last season, and am quite impressed with what he has achieved, even with his first woking prototype. I am looking forward to seeing what he has in store for first pre-production binding.
But please, do not ask Keffler to compromise his designs based on price, there are already plenty of more affordable, poorly performing products available for those who are not serious about their equipment choices. I encourage Keffler to produce the best he can, regardless of the selling price, for those riders who are looking for a no compromise solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:17 pm 
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I'm a skier too and I do have a problem paying 6-7 bills for ski bindings. But then I'm a cheapskate, or I'd have a custom carbon Donek like Snowman's instead of an old DIY. Didn't mean to offend anyone by it.
To be fair dynafits have a lot more engineering involved than any plate binding.
Most high end hardboot binders cost 300+, I have no problem with that. but I would prefer a setup that pulls the board halves together better than the voile.

I'd be happy to drill and tap the plate to use the burton stepins that I already use for spring boot packing with the solid (pic from a few yrs ago). They're flexy and light.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:20 pm 
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My point was not meant to offend, just to point out that there already exist many "affordable" options, and that what a custom engineered solution such as Keffler's has to offer is higher performance, specifically designed to be a no compromise solution for hard boot splitters. I would prefer that Keffler not compromise his design in order to reach a certain price point.

"To be fair dynafits have a lot more engineering involved than any plate binding."

Perhaps, but I think I covered that: Dynafit bindings are sold in the thousands of units every season, perhaps even more. So those engineering costs are spread amongst many, many units of sale. A dedicated splitboard plate binding at this point in time might sell 50-100 units, so any development costs are unlikely to be re-couped at all. The reality is that selling a precision built, metal plate binding with a unique board interface solution is expensive to build, requiring precision machining and cutting , and high quality materials.
Sure, it would be great if a high quality, custom built, plate binding and new interface could be produced and sold for $100, but it is just impossible. What do Karakoram Superlights cost, $800 or something? Quality, high performance bindings are going to cost what they cost, no one is getting rich off of making products like this, or even earning a very comfortable living, they do it foe love of the sport and for the hope that they can innovate something which will improve performance for their fellow splitters.

I suspect Keffler's first run will be very reasonable in price for what it has to offer in terms of performance. Making a binding like this is no simple matter, if you think it is, you probably have not produced one, especially not one with a unique new splitboard interface.

BTW, if you want the Voile pucks to hold the board halves together tighter, just set the pucks a little tighter. I have mine set pretty tight, and have to use some force to press the board halves tightly together in order to get the pin through the hole in the slider plate.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Thanks everyone for the feedback so far.

When the skins come out, the binding go away!

Here's a side view so you can see the volume that they will take up in your pack.

The in house toe and heel blocks allow the bails to collapse flat. This is not as convenient when getting locked in since the heel bail can be pushed too far back which means you have to fidget a little with it, but it really didn't bother me all year and I feel it is worth it to have the bails fold up.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Location: Udapimp, Idaho
That's good thinking, folding bails flat makes stowing easier.
I do think a hard stop for the heel bail (like bombers or F2s)to keep it from folding back when stepping in on sketchy slopes
would be easy to incorporate by leaving a nub of aluminum material or adding a small pin or screw.
TD3 heel block
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:23 pm 
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deleted...sorry, double post...


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 Post subject: Re: Hardboot specific binding
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:24 pm 
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b0ardski wrote:
That's good thinking, folding bails flat makes stowing easier.
I do think a hard stop for the heel bail (like bombers or F2s)to keep it from folding back when stepping in on sketchy slopes
would be easy to incorporate by leaving a nub of aluminum material or adding a small pin or screw.


I think I could add a pin to keep them from going all the way back. Thank you for the suggestion. I saw that on an older carving binding but didn't think it was worth the trouble and extra piece to make, buy, drill, tap, mess with, and something else to break.


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