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 Post subject: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:21 am 
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Posts: 14
I am sure there must be a thread which covers this topic but had little luck searching.
I need to stone grind my resort board. It has taken a beating in the thin cover in trees this year. I have always maintend myself before this.
How will I be able to tell if the shop tech knows how to do it without removing too much base?
I have no idea how to tell if it is "base high" or "edge high"
I can have a fine "race tune" done for carving by a true pro for $120 (takes 7 days)
OR a complete package at REI for $55 (2 days)
Big difference in price.
any links much appreciated


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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:27 am 
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http://www.tognar.com/base_flat_tips_in ... board.html

This link had some good info on stone grinding. I always assumed new boards come from the factory perfect.....not so.
The link has both ski and snowboard so pick thru it to find what u need.
I found the last lines in article about types of wood used in snowboards very interesting.
The $120 price I gave in above post was from one of the shops (indeed the same person named) quoted in the article. While I do not need a perfect carving race tune....I don't want excessive amounts of material removed from the board. I will probably suck it up and pay max price for once in my cheapskate life.


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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:01 pm
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Location: Colorado
You wouldn't use a stone-grinder to reduce (flatten) the base. You would use a belt-grinder to remove material; then the stone-grinder is used to re-structure the base and create the pattern you see on new skis. Stone-grinders remove very little material, so you would have to "pass" it through the machine a ton of time to get it right.

Unfortunately you can never get a snowboard perfectly flat, but it doesn't matter anyway, especially with rocker shapes. Base-high is different and can be fixed.

A stone-grind is a luxury, not a necessity. I think the "Pro-Tune" is a scam, REI also does a piss-poor tune in my experience. Where are you located? Someone in your area may have an honest shop for you. A bad ski-tech will do more harm than good to your gear!

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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:14 am 
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I am in metrowest MA area.
Yes I have been holding off on getting my board done for all the same reasons you mentioned but.....I was at resort for 2 days of pow and could not move on the flats. Another rider I was with was getting much farther on the flats than me and we have the same board....and rider/length ratio. The slowness is what is driving me to spend the money...I am getting old and hate kick stepping.

I debur/tune my edges and p-tex as needed and wax regularly but the time may have come to start fresh. I have hit quite a few stumps and rocks this season so far.
Heading out now to use my "pre-owned" splitter at local mtn. we will see how she climbs.

Also I have started using this new "no iron" wax tool. It puts on wax in thin layer so no wastful scraping 95% of it off...Amazing tool. Takes 5 min to do my board. the wax lasted 2 days of dry snow riding


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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:37 am 
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Location: Colorado
Dirk_Gently wrote:
Also I have started using this new "no iron" wax tool.
There is no better tool for waxing ever invented than an iron! The heat from the iron allows the wax to soak into the base. It is not about the surface wax, it is a porous surface and needs wax for hydration. On old dry boards, we would impregnate wax with a very thick coat and then let it sit under warm lamps (or hot room) for 24-48 hours to get the wax to soak in. You may also try a different temperature wax, "All-Temp Wax" IS NOT all temp. Get a "regular tune" and see if it helps. Then try the heavy wax job.

This isn't a base high issue, base high only effect edging not gliding.

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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:26 am 
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Location: sofoco
PedroDelfuego wrote:
There is no better tool for waxing ever invented than an iron! The heat from the iron allows the wax to soak into the base. It is not about the surface wax, it is a porous surface and needs wax for hydration. On old dry boards, we would impregnate wax with a very thick coat and then let it sit under warm lamps (or hot room) for 24-48 hours to get the wax to soak in.


Hertel Super Hot Sauce and bake in front of woodstove at about 120-130F for a few hours or overnight and you'll be flyin'.

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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:15 pm 
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Location: white room
To quote a bumper sticker from a local shop "It's not the tune, you suck!" Seriously, Mr. Fuego is right. Not much need for a stone grind on a backcountry board, unless maybe you want it restructured for spring riding (deeper, longer grooves). For me, a stone grind generally involves riding over some Sierra granite, and I don't even bother with p-tex unless it's a core shot or perpendicular to the edge. I think the wax is your problem. Not sure what kind of tool you are talking about, but a hot wax should last 5-10 days in most conditions, especially if you are not on packed snow. If hot waxing is too much of a pain in the ass, a decent rub-on or some Zardoz (or both) should do the trick if used before each tour. I'd save your money. $120 for a tune is ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:41 pm 
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My slow board may have been tempeture related. I used "all Temp" wax before heading to mtn. I will try switching to cold temp wax as this artic front does not seem to want to let up.
I brought up the wax tool issue as a potential problem. I used an iron for years before this season. But scraping off all that $ wax is such a waste. The tool itself is just a piece of pvc pipe wrapped with some special fabric which smooths out the wax real well. Just rub a bunch of wax on the board cold (like waxing someones windows on Haloween.....do kids still do that???) then smooth it out with the tool putting a lot of pressure on it. FWIW after 2 days of hard riding...the wax was still there.
Why does baking the board help??? Me baking while waxing mabey.....but the board????
Mabey I should switch back to the Iron.....but will try cold temp wax with the PVC tool first.
As far as stonegrind goes....I am not trying to improve performance in turns....just glide run out. I know this board has performed better in the past in similar runouts and thought it related to all the knicks and gouges received riding the trees this year when there has not been enough coverage.
I agree with u fuster....not the tune its the rider.


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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Posts: 10
Quote:
There is no better tool for waxing ever invented than an iron! The heat from the iron allows the wax to soak into the base. It is not about the surface wax, it is a porous surface and needs wax for hydration. On old dry boards, we would impregnate wax with a very thick coat and then let it sit under warm lamps (or hot room) for 24-48 hours to get the wax to soak in. You may also try a different temperature wax, "All-Temp Wax" IS NOT all temp. Get a "regular tune" and see if it helps. Then try the heavy wax job.

This isn't a base high issue, base high only effect edging not gliding.


The heat opens the base material, allowing it to soak in more wax. Iron-less waxing is a good quick fix, but you aren't gonna get the base saturated with enough wax to get things where you want them.


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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:51 am
Posts: 74
Location: Mormon HQ.... AKA SLC
Okay so here's a little knowledge..

Even though I don't come close to knowing it all I did work in a shop that tuned for more than a decade and attended the Fall Wintersteiger tuning workshop many, many times and did tuning classes at Sun Valley Ski Tools as well. Those skier guys know their shit.

So in regards to stone-grinding... It's really kind of a mixed bag of what you want, what you already have and the kind of snow you have/get. Unfortunately you don't live in a place where one grind will do you good at all times. Although I am not personally familiar with east coast snow from what I know it has many similar traits to PNW snow. It is generally high moisture content snow, which gives you two types of things to deal with and they are on both ends of the spectrum. Your newly fallen snow has lots of moisture which your board would be best suited to a very coarse grind which helps to break up the suction cause by this high moisture content. The coarse grind is also suited well to very warm spring conditions no matter where you are located. But then your high moisture snow turns into rock hard ice in long periods of no snowfall and that kind of ice, which happens in the PNW as well ( I grew up there ) generally is best suited to a very fine, little to no structure grind. Usually with that kind of ice, the smoother your base is the faster your glide.

Now for people who live in an area like me that gets Intermountain snow pack ( Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico) we can get along pretty darn well with just a very fine or almost no structure grind for the vast majority of the year. This doesn't mean that our board/skis will always be lightning quick but our snow crystals are generally speaking through out the course of the year very similar when compared to the fluctuations in snow crystals of coastal snow, be it left or right coast snow. We have low moisture snow, here in Utah where I live, it's not uncommon to have 4% snow which really kinda sucks, it's so light that you can't even get on top of it to ride the pow, you just plow through it riding every thing underneath it, it really kinda sucks at a resort on a 10inch 4% day.I'm much happier with 7% snow, still light but enough moisture/body that you can get on top of it and slash it.

As far as base high/edge high goes, snowboards are fucked compared to skis. I have seen almost perfect bases on snowboards but they are very, very, very far and few in between. To get them to that point usually leaves not much left for future grinds. In a different life in Idaho where Sun Valley has an unusually high Fruit Booter population I have personally seen a perfect snowboard base, but that was a narrow carving board, and your or my chances of making that happen on a standard production freeride snowboard are slim to none, not even worth your time to think about it, with the exception of a board that is ridiculously edge high, that could cause some crazy suction issues. If I had to choose between the two I'd take base high every time over edge high.

Now on to waxing.

The first thing you need to determine is if you have a sintered or extruded base on your board.

If it is an extruded base waxing doesn't really do you as much good. An extruded base is generally faster in an unmaintained condition than it's counter part, but it is a nonporous that when waxed the wax just sits on top. This kind of base really can be just as fast with a cold wax as a hot wax, or with a liquid rub on. Even when hot waxed the wax is gone within a few runs because the wax is just sitting on top of the base and comes off right away from the friction of the snow. This base though is much more durable to damage and is much easier to repair in the event of damage.

A Sintered base on the other hand responds greatly to a good hot wax and the pores open up with heat and trap the wax. These types of bases can be made lighting quick if you really know how to wax. The best thing you can do with base like this is hot box it. A hot box holds the temperature between 110˚-140˚ depending on your wax for 2 to 6 hours and the base will really absorb the wax. I was blown away the first time I used one, I laid on the wax SUPER heavy and popped it in at 115˚ for about 4 hours and when I pulled it out you could almost hardly tell that I had left any wax on it at all. It was kinda crazy, but then again my board was kinda crazy fast when I rode it for the first time.

With wax you wanna make sure your using the right stuff as well, generally speaking for the layman a good High Fluorinated wax that's rated all temp is best. Just use a respirator and be in a well ventilated area. Temp specific waxes are great but require quite a bit more knowledge and experience to make work right. You need to know your snow temp ( which is much different than your ambient air temp 95% of the time ) and really do your prep right, but it does make a difference. There is a reason the best wax is like $40 for just a few grams and it's super temp specific, the shit works! But once again it takes some skills and knowledge to make it work right and not just be pissing away money.


For where your at start with all temp fluorinated wax. If it's new snow a good brushing will add some structure and make it fast(er) if its ice get a cork and make that shit smooth as glass and it will be fast(er).

I'll stop here, if you wanna know more just ask and I'll try to do my best....

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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:32 am 
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Posts: 14
WOW, thanks.
Hope that helps others as much as myself. I did not realize boards could have non-sintered bases like my back country skiis. I am pretty this board (custom x) has sintered base. I do not find any noticeable pattern cut into the base (like when I brush after waxing) so I can only assume that it has a fine or no structure (from factory).
The snow which gave me glide trouble appeared to be dry and fluffy (packed in these flatter areas)....then again we around here call anything that is not rock hard "powder"....I would like to find out more on how to determine the moisture content of snow. They have made reference to it recently on the weather forecasts...perhaps because of the extreme cold we have had....but it seems to warm up just a bit for each storm.
That is such a small margin between 4% and 7% snow. Perhaps that is part of my problem with my Mt. Gun submarine under the snow (details in other thread)
I did not think about air temp vs. sno temp when choosing a wax. Until recently I thought all snow was 32 degrees. given the New England changing temps I will stick to the all temp Dakine wax.
Interesting that you recommend a respirator.
Given that I do my board work in the basement where it is only like 60 degrees perhaps I should construct a hot box. At the very least I guess I should have the board warmed up to normal house temp.
As far as edge high/base high. When I run a straight edge across it I see 1/16" of light towards the center for much of the length (some spots more). I do not find that alarming do you?
What started this whole base grind thing was when I went to this "race tune" shop for a file tool to file the base edge portion (in the same plane as the bottom of the board)of the metal edges (I watched some u tube videos on it first). I have a tool which does the more often filed verticle edge side of the board (and given the rocks and logs I use it often). So I was completely talked out of trying to do the base edges myself with a file because "I would destroy my board" and I got a lecture on how boards come from the factory "imperfect" and I need a complete tune/grind/beltsand at $120 and 2 weeks lead time. I believed the guy (but could not wait 2 weeks) and left with no file.....but I did leave with this new wax tool I have been referencing. I like the wax tool mostly because it does not require wasteful scraping off of thrown away expensive wax. That tool wax job was still good after 2 long days of dry coarse snow (my east coast opinion).

So I have given up on the expensive tune. I would still like to do my base side metal edges somehow.
I am ready to go back to the Iron (get to drink more beer that way anyhow) and perhaps figure out how to do a hotbox with some foil faced polyiso insulation and light bulbs.

Thanks again for the help here at my other thread detailing my mtn. gun issue


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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:35 am 
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Location: Mormon HQ.... AKA SLC
You need to get over the "wasting expensive wax" mentality. When you scrape your board at least 50% of what you put on should be coming back off, usually it's more like 80% comes back off. If your leaving enough wax on your board that you are for sure some is on there after two days and you can visibly see it, it's too much wax and it's probably slowing you down more than it is speeding you up. After you have scraped your board there should just be a microscopic layer of wax left on the base. Even a layer .5mm deep is too deep. Tuning at home is fine as long as you know what you are doing and that is what the guy at the shop meant. If you fuck your edges, like add a 4˙ bevel, you can never get it back to a 90˚x0˚... But a two week lead time for a pro tune is bullshit.

A Custom X has an extruded base. You need a respirator because Fluorocarbons are bad for your health and can possibly cause lung cancer with repeated exposure. Your board is slightly edge high but it doesn't sound that bad, but a grind with someone who knows what they are doing could get rid of that easily. Buy bulk wax from One Ball Jay http://www.one-ball.com/snow/wax/bulk-wax/f-1-wax/ if your worried about the cost.. Buying that bulk right there will set you up for quite a while and keep your cost down significantly. It costs money to do things right.

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 Post subject: Re: Stonegrinding
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:39 pm 
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Posts: 14
I hope I was not whining about wasting wax. But, when a couple of people from the best shop in the area are raving about the new wax tool....well ya just gotta try it.
As far as what wax still on the board after 2 days of riding...well it is not real noticeable until u run a fingernail over it then I can tell there is something on it and it is not just bare base. I am not sure if that is normal or not. It seems the same as when I used an Iron in the past.
Question on Hot Box...do you scrape the board before baking?
MORE IMPORTANT: I went to burton website and the 2014 custom x are sintered base. Mine is a 2010 or 2011 I forget.
You stated the X has Extruded base....is it possible that is for older models?


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