Splitboard.com Forums

The World's first exclusive splitboard discussion forums






It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:17 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Denver Colorado USA
My friend, the guide Ruedi Beglinger, recently sent me, as a Word document, the text which I am copying below. It is his statement of how he snowboards and I thought people here might find it interesting. I've been snowboarding in this style for years now and I really like it. But I came from a skiing background so hard boots were not that big of a leap for me. I think there is some good information here, but it's one view, of many. I did not include the photos in his document because I think everyone knows what hard boots, plates, and the Dynafit toepiece look like. Hope you enjoy it, TR


Split-Board Mountaineering
&
Back-Country Split-Boarding

I am out guiding some ski-clients up an outstanding ski-peak at Canada’s Rogers Pass. My guests are on skis, while I am guiding them on my split-board. Of course Rogers Pass is a busy place, enthusiastic skiers and snow-boarders from many different parts of this world. This is not the first time I am observing younger snow-boarders working way too hard in getting up the mountain. Bulky and heavy soft-bindings, heavy soft-boots, completely overdressed.

Together with my average strong clients I am zipping past these snow-boarders and quickly look back to find out if I might know them. I don’t know any of them, but their faces are already marked with hard work and tiredness. I feel sorry for them ….. we keep moving on, climbing scenic peaks and skiing or riding the most amazing lines with huge vertical and powder to remember forever.

As a professional mountain guide I get to see this scene again and again, unfortunately every time I am at Rogers Pass. Often when we get split-boarders at the Durrand Glacier Chalet I end up helping them with the proper technique in walking and snow-boarding in complicated large alpine terrain. This is not just part of my job-description as an experienced mountain guide and big mountain terrain snow-boarder and skier, but it is also something I truly enjoy doing. Snow-boarding in the big mountains is more than just another way of curving through untouched endless powder slopes or towering and wild crevassed glaciated areas, it is an indescribable way of gliding through the serenity of a huge and exciting mountain world.

It all starts with the proper equipment. Yes, soft-bindings and soft boots are a good start. However eventually it is time to move on and buy equipment more suitable for travelling in big mountain terrain. When snow-boarders hear the word plate bindings and ski-mountaineering boots, that is when they get the first chill down their back. Have you ever tried it …..? Trust me, in big mountain terrain these boots walk easier and ride as easy as any soft-boot on the market. Don’t buy the first ski-mountaineering boot, look at light-weight three-buckle boots. The Garmont Helix is so far the best boot I ever have seen for snow-board mountaineering and back-country split-boarding. It weighs 1485 gram, has three buckles and a powerstrap. For the winter 2011 Garmont is bringing even lighter and softer ski-mountaineering boots on the market. The Lightride with 2 buckles and an optional powerstrap, weighs only 1100 gram and then the Masterlite which has also two buckles and a powerstrap, weighs 1250 gram. Both boots will be incredible for snow-boarding in the back-country and in large alpine terrain, I can’t wait to test them on the split-board. Then you need the most amazing walking and riding system invented by Spark R&D for walking with a Dynafit toe piece and the Voile SD Mountain Plate built by Voile. Finally you need telescope ski-poles with plastic hand-grips (not rubber), these plastic hand-grips make it easier to slide the poles in full length in between your pack and your back. The Life-Link Guide or Trillium are great light-weight extendable. Why you might like extendable poles with a harder plastic grip, you will learn later. Now we are all set to go for the big climb and amazing line to be boarded we have dreamed off forever.

By the way there is one more point I like to make. It starts with a simple question. How fast can you get out of your soft-bindings in case you get caught in an avalanche. Now don’t tell me that same old line …. It is simple to out-ride an avalanche. Yes it is, maybe not easy but possible if it is a class one slab-avalanche or a small point release avalanche. However if it is a class 2 avalanche, size 100 meters by 100 meters and 100cm deep hard-slab, you are rather lucky if you make it out. If the avalanche is much bigger then it becomes absolutely impossible to out-ride it …. even for the best boarders. When caught in any avalanche, the debris will toss you around, picture your self being in a tumbler that is going full speed. Skis or a snow-board act as an anchor and can pull you down, deep under the avalanche debris. OK, the only way to increase your survival chance if you are dragged down by an avalanche is getting out of your board and getting rid of the poles as quick as possible. If it takes you 3 short seconds to get out of the soft-bindings then you lost all needed time and the avalanche will win the race. You have to be able to reach down onto the binding and quickly pull both front-bales, this will open both plate bindings within a split second and then the board is falling away from you. Something which is only possible with a plate binding or the Voile SD Mountain Plate.

How do we walk:
- Dress lightly. When you stand around you should feel slightly cool, although not shivering. What ever you have on at this moment should be fine for walking.
- Have your boots in full walking mode
- Ski poles adjusted for walking, not too short or long. When you turn the poles around and hold them directly below the basket with the handle touching the surface of the board, having the lower arm perfectly level, then you have the best length for your poles for walking in any terrain. Remember, while walking in steep terrain you might hold the lower pole on the handle and the up-hill pole slightly below the handle. Keep it simple and efficient, don’t adjust the poles for every individual slope.
- Lock your ski-boots into the toe-peace of the Dynafit system, depending on incline use or don’t use the heel-risers.
- The riding interface or Voile SD Mountain Plate is light and can easily be carried in the back-pack.
- You will be amazed how much easier you are going to walk than during the days when you toured in bulky and heavy soft-boots. Trust me, that is not an opinion ….. it is a proven fact.

How to ride:
- First of all, it is better to have the plate-bindings set slightly forward. I have mine at 24 degr. at the front and 16 degr. at the back. This will make riding easier with ski-mountaineering boots and will also make any pushing with the ski-poles across flat terrain or on difficult traverses easier.
- Assemble the board for riding down that untouched and endless powder slope and breath-taking wild glacier.
- The Dynafit toe piece stays where ever it is
- Put the board together and take the riding interface or Voile SD Mountain Plate out of your back-pack, slide it into the interface-rails. Make sure you clean all snow from the board.
- Keep the ski-boots loose. Maybe tighten the top buckle slightly, maybe to the first notch. The lower buckles should be snug but not too tight. The walking mode, located on the back of your boots, should stay in walking mode. When you are riding and the boot feels too tight then loosen the top buckles one notch at the time until it feels good. If they are too loose then you adjust the top buckle the other way.
- The ski-poles stay in full walking length. I am sure you have never heard this. Remember, when you come to a flat section or nasty traverse you don’t want to stop and untie and lengthen the poles from your pack.
- Keep the poles either in your back-hand or slide them both poles level in between your back-pack and back. Shortly before you need the poles pull them out and double pole the flat section or nasty traverse as you keep up all speed.


All this might need a little time to learn and get used to. However, if you are willing to learn to become a strong and dynamic snow-board mountaineer and back-country split-boarder then you will quickly appreciate how much easier this is going to be. Easier technique and equipment will increase your fun out there.

Don’t forget to be properly equipped with avalanche beacons, avalanche probe and shovel and read the avalanche bulletin prior to going into any uncontrolled mountain terrain. Also tell somebody at home where you are going, regardless in how big your touring-party might be.

Go out there and enjoy every minute, have fun and stay safe.

Ruedi Beglinger

Helpful web-sites:

http://www.splitboard.com
The future of back-country snow-boarding


http://www.sparkrandd.com/products/dynafits/
Split-board equipment


http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/SparkR ... gories.bok
Split-board equipment


http://www.voile-usa.com
Split-board equipment


http://priorsnowboards.com
Split snow-boards


http://www.garmontusa.com
Ski-touring boots and extendable ski-poles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:10 pm
Posts: 1410
Location: UT
Thanks for sharing the article. While some of it goes to personal preference, it was still very informative.
Quote:
For the winter 2011 Garmont is bringing even lighter and softer ski-mountaineering boots on the market. The Lightride with 2 buckles and an optional powerstrap, weighs only 1100 gram and then the Masterlite which has also two buckles and a powerstrap, weighs 1250 gram. Both boots will be incredible for snow-boarding in the back-country and in large alpine terrain, I can’t wait to test them on the split-board.
Definitely looking forward to giving the masterlite a look next season.http://gearjunkie.com/garmont-masterlite

_________________
Experts tell me I'm not a serious rider; riding boards that are too long with the incorrect boot and binding setup and I'm not having fun...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:56 pm
Posts: 470
Location: Meyers, CA
Tim,

Thanks for sharing this. I appreciate Ruedi's perspective and thoughts on split gear. He has truly incredible experience and his opinion is worth considering. The tools he describe clearly work very well for him and his clients.

I've spent time with many grizzled guides and only the best maintain their joy in their pursuit.

Quote:
Snow-boarding in the big mountains is more than just another way of curving through untouched endless powder slopes or towering and wild crevassed glaciated areas, it is an indescribable way of gliding through the serenity of a huge and exciting mountain world


As splitboarders we are lucky to have someone of his caliber out there as an ambassador.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:36 pm
Posts: 382
Location: Lethbridge, AB
Snurfer wrote:
Thanks for sharing the article. While some of it goes to personal preference, it was still very informative.
Quote:
For the winter 2011 Garmont is bringing even lighter and softer ski-mountaineering boots on the market. The Lightride with 2 buckles and an optional powerstrap, weighs only 1100 gram and then the Masterlite which has also two buckles and a powerstrap, weighs 1250 gram. Both boots will be incredible for snow-boarding in the back-country and in large alpine terrain, I can’t wait to test them on the split-board.
Definitely looking forward to giving the masterlite a look next season.http://gearjunkie.com/garmont-masterlite


$819?!?! wow...

Very informative article indeed.

_________________
4th annual Canuck Splitfest presented by Prior: January 4-5, 2014 in Rogers Pass
http://www.splitboarders.ca


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:51 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
definatly interesting article. A good friend of mine used to ride Koflach superpipe boots in softbindings (the old Sims Bindings with the extension brackests). I am currently in the process of buying a DYI splitkit and naking my own light rails for a ride binding when I started thinking and stumbled across this thread. I must say definatly a setup I am going to consider. I think all of the older hardboots for snowboarding were fairly soft, and might be a starting ground. hhhmmmmmmmmmmmm gotta see what the bay has to offer.

Thanx for sharing that article.

Chewie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:58 pm
Posts: 401
Location: slc
Reality check:

There are soft boots, made for snowboarding, that weigh under 800grams per boot. Pair those boots with the newest Spark binders and you've got a total setup weight as light or lighter than anything you can assemble using hardboots. Yes yes, I know there are MANY other factors besides weight of course. There's some great touring tips in there though, and Ruedi gets much respect.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:32 pm
Posts: 355
I respectfully disagree that pulling the bales on plate bindings is anything you'd be able to do while in or even instantly after starting a slide. Maybe if you were climbing or below and saw one coming. Even worse you might get one off, then have your other leg spiraled and broken-a lot- and still be pulled down by that rubber gumby-d leg. Some starting zones might let you dig in a bit or angle a bit, so you end up above most of the debris, some cases that wouldn't be worth trying, in the latter I think it's pretty unrealistic that you are going to be able to find and pop two toe bales. You'd be better off pulling your inflatable backpack or getting your avalung in your mouth.

You want to stand sideways and ride, you are going to have an anchor attached. The only realistic way off quick is to hunt down some old clickers or get the Yonex Accublades out of Japan and rig a pull strap to both levers that comes up in easy reach. I think if you can get your bindings off while sliding after someone pushes you down on your behind down an icy black run at a resort, then it is feasible you could pull it off in the early moments of a slide.

I think if you used a Ride Contraband soft binding that only has the one buckle for your instep you could rig a better quick release than trying to reach down to your bales on plates. You probably want your bindings' notched-ladder thingys as short as possible too, so you can pull them all the way off quick.

I would be surpised to see any mfg really market a quick release feature as functional in a slide, soo much potential liability from only having one release. You can make a pretty good ankle strap release from the mini ariplane buckles that people use on their commuter bike bags and purses, its a little hard to find the small ones.

http://www.discountbeltbuckle.com/Mini- ... p_191.html

and in pink!!! :disco:
http://www.bodycandy.com/cgi-bin/item/BUCK-528


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:31 pm
Posts: 135
I agree with Scooby. I have great respect for Reudi, but I have taken 2 big rides in almost 30 years in the backcountry and don't have any illusions that I could release my board in a tumbling ride. I have been able to get an avalung in my mouth, swim, even grab snowpacked sunglasses off and jam them in my coat, but it is inconceivable to me that I could release both bails. Both rides were on skis, 1 AT and one tele, and the AT ride changed completely when my skis came off - I was able to stay on the surface and at least see what was coming. The tele skis stayed on and I pretty much just rag dolled, felling them pull me down.

I spend a lot of time each winter staring at my mtn plates trying to figure that one out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
Much of the discussion on quick release for plate bindings was addressed in the following thread:
Avalanche release for plate bindings? http://www.splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4290&p=29318&hilit=golf#p29318

Which refer to a WildSnow blog see:

Snowboard Quick Release System
Special to Wildsnow.com by Tim Ryan
http://www.wildsnow.com/articles/snowboard_quick_release/snowboard_release.html

It does not take much to convince me that plate bindings are the way to go; when you are in an avalanche and need to get rid of your board, which is acting like a "boat anchor".

Just read some the avalanche accidents on Colorado Avalanche Information Center involving snowboarders.

Here is one positive report
Quote:
Accident Summary
The two arrived on the summit at 1:48 pm, staying up there for a few minutes, discussing options and enjoying the view. They jumped on the cornice alone the ridge to the summit with little in the way of results. They then chose to descend the SE face one at a time. Rider 1 dropped in and after a few turns noticed some loose snow to his right. The wet, loose snow eventually pulled him in. He could not make a move as the flowing snow was really grabby. He was able to quickly get out of his step-in bindings (Hard boots with toe bales), which allowed him to defend himself better, keeping his feet down hill and in front of him. Rider 2 watched as Rider 1 went out of view, over a roll over and rocky band.


From 2010/05/01 - Colorado - Tenmile Peak (Peak 2), Tenmile Range
Published 2010/05/24 by Brad Sawtell - Forecaster, CAIC see the complete report at http://avalanche.state.co.us/acc/accidents_co.php

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:44 pm
Posts: 414
Location: Cupertino, CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gyg9zNb0vU

Not so much of an issue. I've had something similar in the past on some clicker HB's as well as other soft bindings. As long as you are releasing the ankle straps with one quick pull you're achieving the same thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:43 am
Posts: 82
Location: SL,UT
Quote:
There are soft boots, made for snowboarding, that weigh under 800grams per boot. Pair those boots with the newest Spark binders and you've got a total setup weight as light or lighter than anything you can assemble using hardboots. Yes yes, I know there are MANY other factors besides weight of course. There's some great touring tips in there though, and Ruedi gets much respect.


Buck's right - I've got some of the lightest ski boots made (some 1 buckle dynafit rando race boots) and they're still 350-400 grams heavier than my 32 ultralights. So in ride mode the whole setup is probably a bit heavier than my Spark or Karakoram setups. They are definitely lighter in tour mode though (plates in pack), and the ergonomics of the dynafit pivot and the lateral stiffness of the hardboot make touring a bit more efficient IMO. Contrary to Reudi's advice, I feel fine in my normal +15, -5 stance (though I think I'm going to cant the bindings slightly). I think the hardboot setup will be my go-to for really long days, overnight trips, days with really fit ski crews, steep hard snow, cramponing, etc. If I had to pick one setup to ride mainly pow in the Wasatch though, I'd go softboots. If I toured more in glaciated terrain, I'd be on the hardboots. Horses for courses I guess. Lucky for me, I've got both. :headbang:

I'm not even gonna get into the pole holding argument though - that's just whack steeze. :nononno: :wink:

_________________
Winter is coming...

Various Chimera prototypes
TLT5/Dynafit/Phantom
32 ULs/Blaze LT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 49
I ride the F1 boot with Dynafit toe pieces and Sno Pro Race bindings (toe and heel pieces), Modifiedto voile slider plates . The Snow Pro Race bindings come with 0, 3 and 6 degree canting. Read the F1/F3 Post for more details.

I have gone back to a more traditional stance; 21 front and 9 back, in order to get a more normal 20 inch stance width. In order for me to run higher angles (free carve, plus 30 degrees), I would have to increase stance width, in order to accommodate the Dynafit toe piece and G3 Dual Heel lifters.

Also, the Bomber Sidewinder Bindings are of great interest, if you tour with the Dynafits. Bomber Sidewinder allow for later flex for the ride down and at Dynafits help eliminate lateral flex for skiing/touring.

_________________
Ride the Pow!
----
Venture Storm R 163 (2010) with Dynafit Bindings, F1 Scarpa Boots, Snowpro Race Plate Bindings * Nitro Retro Swallowtail 171 (DIY Splitboard), Burton Fish 156 * Vans BOA "Klutch" Step-in Snowboard Boot and Switch X Bindings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why use hard boots and plates? One view.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:03 pm
Posts: 221
Location: British Columbia
Not to dredge up an old post, but I was reading this.

I am wondering why a hardboot/ dyna fit or whatever would be faster uphill than a regular light snowboard boot and spark binding? :scratch: If the boot isn't lighter, is it really that much more efficient? 800 plus for boots??

I often hear skiiers complain about comfort and cold feet too, but maybe they dont know anything..I usually find my feet are too warm in my snowboard boots.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  





Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group