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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:43 pm
Posts: 76
Location: Warshington
ChrisI wrote:
huFfer wrote:
You know nothing. Your whole diatribe is absolutely 100% obsurd, you should stay home or stick to a "controlled" area. :roll:

and a few others might as well join him...


Huffer, there's plenty of validity in Jon's post. Why dont you add something constructive or cruise on over to rockclimbing.com? So far this has been a great forum without the egos; we dont need that kind of attitude here.

Thanks,
-Chris


Ok lets look at the validity of his statement...

"Never rap off just a sling."
-That's crap. His choice perhaps but not as a rule of thumb in the mountaineering world.

"Lowering rings are dirt cheap, and light, too."
-Ok i'll agree w/that.

"The real issue everyone is talking about here involves pulling the rope, as in lowering yourself, that will burn through both rope and sling."
-This makes no sense at all pulling and lowering are two completely seperate issues.

"Pulling through a sling will probably crisp the sling more than the rope, but why take the chance if you don't have to?"
-Conjecture but seemingly acurate enough.

Now is where things really turn sour...

"And who are you trying to kill if you leave a half-burnt sling somewhere? Sorry to be preachy about it, but think about the next person who may want to, or need to, use that piece you've left."
-I have real problems w/ this. It is certainly not my responsibility to make sure I leave a "safe" rap anchor for the next party. If they don't have the knowledge and equipment to assess what is already fixed and either change it or add to it for their own safety then I stick by my original statement: stay in the climbing gyms and resorts where every thing is dumbed down for the masses. The mountains are dangerous.

"Oh, and I've had to free a pitch to retrieve rope before, one time I had to do it twice!"
- Again, this makes no sense, if a rope gets stuck from rappeling through a single sling (or anything for that matter) how do you "free the pitch"? no toprope available, it's stuck. Maybe enough came down that you can re-lead on the long end but that won't effect the anchor or sling. Or you can do what I have done and prusik both strands simultaneously. Sketchy but the safest option, climbing is dangerous.

I'm sure Jon is a great guy but there isn't much "fact" in his statement, I simply called him on it. Sorry for not sugar coating it but that's not my style. My suggestion is to ignore all of my posts if they somehow offend.

..oh and as far as something constructive goes I have nothing to add to what Skykilo and Huevon have said, I agree w/ both of them. Of course, I think pointing out inaccuracies is constructive...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:48 pm 
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Location: PNW
I wouldn't give me too much credit.

But I think the rules of the backcountry go like this:

1) don't get hurt
2) don't litter
3) rip it up

Obviously #1 is the most important so do what you need to do in order to prevent it from happening. Sometimes this involves violating rules #2 and #3, which are also important to follow. But if you violate rule #1 because you were trying to satisfy rule #2 or #3, then you are a dumbass, to say the least.


LaughingAtYouClowns wrote:
I was gonna post on this thread cause I thought it was Rap


I think that's your cue, Sky.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:23 pm 
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LaughingAtYouClowns wrote:
I was gonna post on this thread cause I thought it was Rap like Yo,Yo,Yo MCHammer and DJ Eazy Rock rap.


I'm changing my screen name to "Grand Master B"

8)

Thanks everyone for a lively discussion with lots of different viewpoints. I wasn't aware of Spectra's heat/friction issues.

For a static, non-moving rope, I'm still curious whether spectra under load can act like an edge/knife and cut a rope. Sounds like something to ask the manufacturers. They've probably done the testing to know.

Ride on,

Andy

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 Post subject: Rap on a sling?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:23 am 
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Posts: 167
Location: Mt Shasta
Really amazed there is a debate about rapping directly off a sling. I'd never in a million years do such a thing unless it was the absolute only option before a death downclimb.

Even on rappel the load and small amounts of friction, not to mention some wierd epic situatuion, could compromise either the rope or the sling. Can't recall how many times I've seen bail slings on a route with a melt where the rope was -- most likely from pulling the rope but who knows.

On I don't know how many trad routes I've climbed I've only left a sling or two. Well worth the trade off.

I'd be willing to bet THE FARM the sling manufacturer, ANY SLING MANUFACTURER, says NO WAY!

If you leave a sling why not leave a ring as well, incrementally the trash addition is marginal?

Andy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:22 pm 
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Location: Warshington
...and it amazes me how many of you think it's so sketchball. :roll:

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 Post subject: inscription
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:03 pm 
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Location: Mt Shasta
Inscription on your gravestone: "and it amazes me how many of you think it's so sketchball."

Climb on.

Andy


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:45 pm
Posts: 158
Location: Reno
Yeah, nothing's crazier than a climber who listens to the advice of AMGA guides and the manufacturers of climbing equipment :roll:

I climbed with a guy once who over-cammed every single cam that he placed on lead.... As I was cleaning them, I was able to pull them out without touching the trigger. When I pointed it out to him, he justified it by pointing out that he had never had a ground fall.... incidentally, the only lead-fall that he had ever taken was on a sport route. A lot of people get away with poor technique, but that doesn't make it any better.

I carry 3 alluminum rings every time that I put on my harness. Any time that I expect to be more than one rope-pitch above the ground, I only go with climbing partners who think the same way that I do.

Now, in a pinch, I will begin to compromise my standards... no question. But, I never leave the ground intending to.

There are also places in the world where speed and light weight is so important that I consider leaving behind peices of standard equipment. The way I look at it, though, if you are planning on climbing in that type of terrain, you probably have a really good idea of where the edge of safety lies and just how far you are willing to stand on either side of it. I also know for a fact that a climber capable of operating in that terrain will not need to seek advice on an internet forum, so what's the point of even talking along those lines?

Zach

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:20 pm 
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Posts: 27
Location: Seattle
It's probably worthwhile talking along those lines just to see what kinda whacko responses ensue.

You'd have to be a serious jerk to go to the trouble of buying someone a tombstone just to put a smart-ass inscription on it.

I've never carried an Al ring and I don't intend to start. I ski terrain where a fall would likely result in death, if not severe dehabilitation. I don't think I'd have any business being there if I let little things like friction burn on the sheath of my rope worry me. Think about it. If you're honestly that risk averse, backcountry skiing (or snowboarding!) probably isn't for you. At the very least, not in terrain where rappels are necessary.

I've personally known people who have died or been injured from rappel. The causes? Anchor failure. User error with device. Never heard of a sling doing anything detrimental to a rope.


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 Post subject: Re: Rap on a sling?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:23 pm 
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shasta wrote:
Really amazed there is a debate about rapping directly off a sling. I'd never in a million years do such a thing unless it was the absolute only option before a death downclimb.
Are you a sport climber by any chance?

Rapping of a sling is just fine.

The sling will eventually burn through by pulling the rope; THE ROPE WILL NOT GET HURT.

And since you're loading the sling statically while rappelling, you can't cut through the sling and kill yourself. The only danger is to anybody who uses the sling after you pulled the rope.

Good God, there's a lot of misinformation out there. :shock:

PS, Zach, if he were over-camming his cams, you wouldn't get them out. Did you mean undercamming?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:27 pm 
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Posts: 27
Location: Seattle
How many rings should I carry up a route like this (between the red dots)?
Image

Or this?
Image
That's only 3,000' of climbing...

TIA!

Indeed Paul, over-camming is safe for the body but very dangerous for the wallet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:39 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
k, swordfighting aside... here's a hijack.

Skykilo, what route/peak is that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Okay, just to throw a little more fuel on the fire, using a ring on rappel does put another possible point of failure in the system.

As far as I can see, the only benefit you're getting by using the ring is potentially less chance of rope snag & less damage to the sling when you pull your rope out after the rappel.

Chances of a ring failing may be remote, but they're not zero.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:40 pm 
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Location: Reno
skykilo wrote:

I've never carried an Al ring and I don't intend to start. I ski terrain where a fall would likely result in death, if not severe dehabilitation. I don't think I'd have any business being there if I let little things like friction burn on the sheath of my rope worry me. Think about it. If you're honestly that risk averse, backcountry skiing (or snowboarding!) probably isn't for you. At the very least, not in terrain where rappels are necessary.


Seriously... I've taken a look at a lot of the terrain that you've ski'd, and most of it is seriously bad-ass, no question.

I just wonder, why on earth would you NOT worry about friction burn on the sheath of your rope? Why would you NOT carry a few ounces of aluminum to minimize the risk?

Your statement above seems pretty ridiculous to me... you're basically saying that you might as well multiply the risks, since you're already in a risky situation... For that matter, why even rappel? Why not just down-climb or air into your lines... I mean, why should you let things like rocks and ice worry you? What's the point of roping up, if you're unwilling to take the most basic of precautions?

I've climbed some scary, desparate shit, and I've solo'd some lines that required somes serious sac. I know the difference between roping up and soloing, though. I know quite a few guys like you who don't seem to grasp the difference, and I wouldn't climb with any of them.

And my advice to anyone looking for climbing advice - don't listen to guys who believe that their talent or abilities exempt them from caution. It's funny, and kind of sad, how many great mountaineers die doing stupid shit.

Zach

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