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Are you in-favor a Waxless Split-Ski Base as I have describe?
Poll ended at Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:59 pm
Yes 60%  60%  [ 9 ]
No 40%  40%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 15
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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:28 am
Posts: 108
Location: Portland, OR
I was just XC skiing this weekend, and had the same thought. I think someone just needs to do it. No doubt there's not a whole lot of a market for it right now, but as splitboarding keeps evolving, the masses will demand a fishscaled board for their splitboard randonee setups...

Can't believe there are 60+ splitboard models for sale this season, and not one has scales...

A couple ways to get there:

-DIY fish scale/patterned base on an older, cambered board with woodworking tools/soldering iron. "Yeah, it's my rock/approach board"
-"Base transplant" from an XC ski. Tricky...
-Kicker skins. These look great. Just order super long skins next time, and use the extra to make your kicker skins.
http://www.agavegroup.com/?page_id=62


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:44 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:28 am
Posts: 108
Location: Portland, OR
Check out this routed-in skin section:

Image

"The Atomic Skintec waxless base, which uses inserted mohair strips on the ski base, is extremely effective for all temperatures and snow conditions. It is the high performance waxless base technology for the classic skier, who prefers to use a waxless ski. The Skintec strips are produced by a Swiss manufacturer of climbing skins and they do not ice up because they have a Teflon-like material that is resistant to freezing. Skintec is available on the Vasa Skintec, a specific ski model that has a flex that was created in conjunction with the Skintec material so that it rides above the snow in the glide phase, but is easy to kick down for excellent grip during the kick phase."


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:28 am
Posts: 108
Location: Portland, OR
DIY scales. Almost too easy...

Image

http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1373&highlight=scales+fish

"So taking the first steps in getting rid of the skins I took the router to the bases of my first skis.
I took a measurement from some "guide" skis and found that the base was patterened 7" in front of pin and 14" behind. I set the skis up on some blocks and clamped them in place. I then set up a jig to try to match the skis pattern left to right. I used the router with a small cutting bit. Set the dept of the plunge on the router. On the router there is a plastic plate for the base. I unscred it and inserted some wood shims to achieve the angle and reinstalled the screws. Next was to line up the router, plunge it, once it reached the depth, I pulled it towards the tail while releasing the plunge to gain the angle."


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:10 pm
Posts: 1411
Location: UT
I get the premise, but one thing that has me questioning this for anything except mostly flat terrain (e.g. x-country and skate skiing) is the pro skimo scene.

They routinely have skin failures during races (loss of adhesion) and carry extra skins, or borrow from teammates - It seems logical they should just get rid of skins altogether and go this route, but they don't. I'm guessing this technology is not so good for ascending steeply. Interestingly, most of the skimo racers I'm aware of don't have climbing heels either.

At any rate I voted no because I have no need for this, but thought the skimo anecdote was worth mentioning.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:02 pm
Posts: 249
Location: OR
You're correct, Snurfer, fish scales wouldn't be effective on anything very steep. But for long approaches/exits on flat and rolling terrain it would be much faster and consume less energy than skins.

Mofoco, thanks for that link. I would totally do that to a cambered DIY board.

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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:15 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Washington
stuka wrote:
But for long approaches/exits on flat and rolling terrain it would be much faster and consume less energy than skins.


I'm thinking kicker skins for the long road out. A fishscale board would be slow riding yeah? I don't need a slow board.

DIY it up and tell us how it does. Kinda curious.


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:04 am
Posts: 34
Just learn to skate the split. It's really not that hard if you do your boots up tight. You will definitely bail hilariously in front of your friends the first... 20 or 30 times you try it, but it will at least lighten the mood of those long slogs back to the truck.


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:02 pm
Posts: 249
Location: OR
Hey Matt a.d., I've been working on skating but finding it stupid hard w/ a rocker board. Are you on a cam board?

powslash, kicker skins may be the right compromise but you'll still get less glide than scales. I understand the intended purpose of kicker skins to be for XC ski touring when things get a little steeper than your scales or kick wax will allow rather than for going far on flat terrain.

I hear ya on not wanting to slow the board down but maybe you'll be pointing it straight more and looking more manly to boot? Har. More seriously I see scales as a compromise and definitely a quiver board for those days that have a long, flattish approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:31 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Easton, WA
We went out with Matt from Voile (in house sales rep) up at the mt baker splitfest. He had exactly what you are describing, a split with fish scales right under foot. Iirc it was a full camber board, but I would have to verify that.

It was a cool concept and they built it literally just to see how it worked. He said that in the right terrain, with the right snow, and the right weather, it was awesome. Anything other than that and it was miserable! He had a really tough time at baker that day (wet snow, lots of steep ascents) but knew it wasn't the right tool for the day.

We thought about trying to use x country kick wax to see how that would do, but we have too many steep ascents with very little flat traversing. I always thought about just using the wrong wax for the snow in the middle of the board so snow would stick to the base and not allow it to glide. I just dont want to waste a day in the backcountry to try it haha

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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:41 am
Posts: 281
Location: Altadena SoCal
It's not base texture that will make this work, it's profile. You'll need a board a double camber, tuned to your exact weight (including clothes, pack, water &c.)

Normal skis and boards have a 'single' camber (one arc when viewed from the side) which spring-loads energy into the snow when weighted. At that point the base is flat.
Image
XC skis have a "double camber," meaning there is the 'normal' camber arch, and an arch on top of that. When the ski is partially weighted, most of the base is flat except underfoot (where the second arch is), hiding the scales (or grippy wax) and letting the sliding wax do it's thing. Only when most of your weight is on one ski (unweighting the other) does the second camber flatten out, exposing the scales (or grippy wax).
Image

Check out this pic.
Image
The gal on the left has her weight evenly distributed on both skis— not exposing the scales/wax— allowing her to glide. The gal on the right has her right ski fully weighted (grip engaged) allowing the other to glide.

**So long as you have a single cambered board, you'll have your grip (scales/wax/mohair inserts) engaged, causing friction and slowing you down; weighted or not.**

Compare the sheer wood underfoot between a XC ski v snowboard. This is the underside of the underfoot portion of an XC ski. (3-5 cm vs. 1 cm) All that yellow is sidewall.
Image
That's b/c skis need the extra material to resist half your weight, but flex under all your weight. Snowboards don't have near enough meat underfoot to counteract your weight and have some camber leftover.
Besides, lifting the board the between bindings (in ride mode) off the snow would take away your primary edge for turning in hard snow. Further, where snowboard bindings are mounted vis a vis the arch, it is impossible to weight a double cambered arch enough to completely flatten out and hold the edge.

For rolling terrain, your better off getting super glidey skins (G3 Alpinist?) and nordic technique-ing your heart out. Or ski your board with the smooth edge inward, and get good at the "herring bone"/skate-ski technique.


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:33 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:20 pm
Posts: 312
I've skied "bc fish scale" skis for years and their great for rolling mellow terrain. Kicker skins are a must for any sort of steepish terrain (20+ degrees). I would love to see someone rig up some max glide kicker skins for splits. Only drawback being you have to carry both pairs of skins for when it getts steep. Be nice to be able to rip them quick and easy then stuff them in a pocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:55 am
Posts: 30
Location: Adirondack Mountains, NY
Why not just use some hard wax (aka kick wax) to achieve the same result as you would get from having a waxless base?

I've been doing this for years in the Northeast, where long approaches on "rolling" terrain is typical when accessing most backcountry zones.

Apply the desired amount of wax and buff with a cork, covering only the kick zone (and area slightly longer than your boot). It takes some getting used to, especially if you're not a Nordic skier, but its well worth the effort. And you can fly on the downhills.

If you stick to the harder waxes (blue and green), you'll have no problem removing the wax with a metal scraper before attaching your skins for the steeper climbs or before you start your descent, especially if your board has been hot waxed recently.

[url]http://www.rei.com/product/454021/swix-hard-wax-45-grams,-blue-extra?preferredSku=4540217009&cm_mmc=cse_PLA-_-pla-_-product-_-4540217009&mr:trackingCode=3C79B337-75FA-E011-9A77-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA&mr:device=c&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=36518307280&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=39033340480&msid=6kJ4qFrE_dc%7Cpcrid%7C36518307280%7C&%7Bcopy:s_kwcid%7D[url]

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 Post subject: Re: Waxless Base Splitboard
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 472
Location: New Castle, Colorado
Quote:
Why not just use some hard wax (aka kick wax) to achieve the same result as you would get from having a waxless base?


I do not want to carry kick wax and take the time to scrape the wax off off skins and skis. What I really need a waxless split-ski is for the long tours (7 Miles avg.) to 10th Mountain Huts on low angle Forest Service Roads and low angle trails in spring-time conditions, which means a softer kick-wax. It would be a lot simpler to use an appropriate-sized waxless base split-ski (AKA Keep it simple) and skins for the steeps.

Concerning Double Camber: I think a single camber (rocker-camber) will suffice, as I not trying to go nordic on a splitboard. Just need just enough waxless base to tour on rolling terrain. So I not looking for a lot of glide, just more than my split-skins touring on rolling terrain.

Concerning Kicker Skins:

I am going to make a couple of pair of Kicker Skins, similar to this;

Image

See "Thin-Skins" post http://splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16321

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