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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:49 pm 
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fuster:

"So again, if it works for you, go for it. But I'm in the camp of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I've yet to be in a situation where I felt I would benefit from hardboots (with the possible exception of kicking steps on Shasta)"

Keeping with the topic of the thread (and I would be interested in discussing board design in an appropriate thread) I would suggest that your axiom: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is essentially in favor of non-innovation. Clearly, it works for you, and that is totally fine. I have no interest in attempting to change you or your preferences. But if everyone followed that axiom, snowboarding itself would not exist at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:31 am 
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It'll be interesting to see what kind of boots the riders in Higher wear. Also, if the crews don't include Stephen Koch, John Griber, TB or Jim Zellers something terrible has gone wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:22 am 
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^^^ They can likely wear their normal 'go-to' boots provided they can find suitable fitting overboots (such as 40 Below Fresh Tracks) and well-fitting companion crampons (often the main issue with using overboots) for the ascents.

Here's a review from Wild Snow, indicating the Fresh Tracks can be left on for the descent as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:13 am 
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96avs01 wrote:
^^^ They can likely wear their normal 'go-to' boots provided they can find suitable fitting overboots (such as 40 Below Fresh Tracks) and well-fitting companion crampons (often the main issue with using overboots) for the ascents.

Here's a review from Wild Snow, indicating the Fresh Tracks can be left on for the descent as well.


I was looking at those fresh tracks for a possible Denali descent in 2014. I wonder how bad I'd have to hack them up to still use plate bindings. Id likely buy the Dynafit One or similar as well as the TLTs wont be warm enough for me. I also wonder about overboots on spantiks in traditional strap bindings. It seems like it would be too bulky, especially on the up. I assume people get by with just spatiks on their own. But Id really want Dynafit for the ascent.

edit: maybe I wouldnt have to cut them at all...

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:05 am 
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Lucas climbed/split to the top of Denali the summer before last, you might try to get in touch with him to see what he used. I know it was a hardboot setup that he didn't really care for but I don't think much effort was put into modding the boots for riding.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:19 am 
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I used rubber randed supergaiters on Raichle "Snowboarder" hard boots with Raichle "thermoflex" (similar to Intuition) liners on my climb and descent of Mt. Bona, 16,500' in the St. Elias. My supergaiters were uninsulated versions, my partners had insulated ones. We modded the rands just a little for a totally secure fit in the plate bindings. With some pretty cold temps, -20 F sometimes, I never struggled with any cold feet problems.
The boots are similar in volume to the Dynafit "One", and I would suspect warmth to be about equal with a well fitted Intuition in the "One". Good fit is paramount, and being able to tighten the boot enough for good riding, without cutting off the circulation. Also, pay special attention to insulation under the foot-this is where the TLT5 seems a little inadequate with its thin sole (great for riding though!). I think the "One" has an insulated boot board?
My feeling is that taking care of ones feet, liners, and socks, ultimately had more to do with keeping the feet warm than the absolute warmth of the footwear. We always slept with boot liners in our bags, always put on dry socks in the morning (they dry out in the bag overnight), and always slept with boot shells inside the tent when up high. Putting on cold shells in the morning can really sap the warmth out of the system. The key was getting the boots on with warm liners, dry socks, and warm feet at the start of the day, if they started out warm, they stayed warm.
Overboots are certainly warm, but I would be a bit worried about the bulk, but of course, with testing, this system should be able to work. I know lots of folks who have climbed Denali with just a good warm double mountaineering boot and no overboots and no problems, assuming one stays hydrated, fed, and healthy. Problems usually occur when shit happens. If I were to be planning a high altitude, arctic conditions descent again, I would embrace the speed ethic to keep from getting into trouble: on Denali this means fast and light from the 14,000' camp (once well acclimatized) to the summit in a single push. This way one can avoid getting pinned down in a storm up high.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Here. Now we can end this thread.
Image
1. Ride better than hardoots and as well if not better than most soft boots.
2. Skin as well or better than most softboots.
3. Better for overall climbing conditions than hardboots (hardboots can kick steps slightly better but for mixed rock/ice I'd rather have these on)
4. Warmer than hardboots
5. Cheaper than hardboots
6. No mods needed!
Sure, they're in the 1st year of production and are a tad heavy.
Solution? DON'T BE A PUSSY

The biggest problem with touring in soft boots has nothing to do with the boots. It's the brackets. K-ram and Voile brackets have tons of play in them. The LT brackets are a little better. The rughty's pictured below are the best brackets made. I'm hoping K-ram redesigns their brackets to take the slop out of them (since that's what I ride). Brackets need wider contact points!
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:36 pm 
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BG:

An alternate view:

1. Ride better than hardoots and as well if not better than most soft boots. Very Doubtful, please post video with riders riding better than Joey Vosburgh.
2. Skin as well or better than most softboots. HB skin better than these, and have a much longer stride for more efficient skinning.
3. Better for overall climbing conditions than hardboots (hardboots can kick steps slightly better but for mixed rock/ice I'd rather have these on): Wrong, AT boots climb very well and are the standard for ski mountaineering the world over. I know of climbers who choose to use TLT5s for ice and mixed climbing over traditional mountaineering boots.
4. Warmer than hardboots: This is also wrong, AT boots are the standard footware for ski descents on 8000 meter peaks
5. Cheaper than hardboots: Are you cheap?
6. No mods needed! : true, no mods needed, so why are so many people willing to do the mods?

You forgot to mention the big downside of Fitwells: much heavier than standard soft boots, which are much heavier than good hardboot set ups. I know, you are such a stud doing 20K days that the weight does not matter to you, but for wimps like me, less weight means more vert per day.

But, I agree that for those who are fundamentally opposed to hard boots (for no apparent rational reason) the Fitwells are a high quality alternative to cheap, mass produced in Asia, soft boots.

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http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Those boots just look like a regular pair of softboots to me. A decent pair for sure, but the same.

People who switch to hardboots want the walk mode. That's the deal. Walk mode. And better ability to ski the split. Anyways, some people need it, some people dont. The slight frustration with softboots is lack of walk, so you are shuffling along, and you always have forward lean, even if you take the time to relax it on your bindings. The boots always have it. I have and use softboots, but I dont want them anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:32 am 
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barrows wrote:
(for no apparent rational reason)


SOME OF US DON'T WANT TO HIKE FOR 8 FUCKING HOURS TO RUIN OUR RIDE DOWN WITH SOME GAY ASS SKI BOOTS ON OUR FEET.

"AT boots climb very well and are the standard for ski mountaineering the world over"
That's cuz they're SKIING!!! NOT SNOWBOARDING

"I know of climbers who choose to use TLT5s for ice and mixed climbing over traditional mountaineering boots."
Doesn't mean they're better. They're not. Look what the best in the world are using for climbing and snowboarding separately. It AIN'T A.T. BOOTS.

Jimmy Chin ain't wearin' AT boots when he doesn't have to:
Image

KGN wrote:
Those boots just look like a regular pair of softboots to me.
People who switch to hardboots want the walk mode. That's the deal. Walk mode.


Umm, yeah. Softboots are the point. Hiking in soft boots is fine. Never have been a problem except for kicking steps. I've never heard anyone I know saying they hate walking in them because of forward lean. That's never even crossed my mind. I could hike for miles of dry schwacking in my T1's and old salomons with no problems whatsoever.

The Fitwell is the first boot to get it right. Stiff sole. Stiff toe box. Boom. Problem solved. They also have very little forward lean. Now we just need more evolution and competition in the market to lighten them up. Snowboard specific mountaineering boots are the future. They will get lighter and more high tech while maintaining a soft boot ride. They will soon make hard boots obsolete except for people with plastic fetishes. Which is what they are. A fetish.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:25 am 
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BGnight wrote:
The Fitwell is the first boot to get it right. Stiff sole. Stiff toe box. Boom. Problem solved. They also have very little forward lean. Now we just need more evolution and competition in the market to lighten them up. Snowboard specific mountaineering boots are the future. They will get lighter and more high tech while maintaining a soft boot ride. They will soon make hard boots obsolete except for people with plastic fetishes. Which is what they are. A fetish.


As far as soft boots go, I would say Sportiva got it right before Fitwell. Spantiks are far more versatile in their potential backcountry application. That being said, I am still considering making the switch to HBs in the next few years for boarding/splitting, but would still take my Spantiks for solely ice climbing or mountaineering outings. Perhaps we should all just be stoked that we have several options for one to find their own niche? Do I personally care if my partner opts for a soft boot or hard boot setup? Hell no, they just need to have a complete and solid set of skills. They could even ride skis with soft boots for all I care. :shock: :thatrocks: :bananas:

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:49 am 
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BGnight wrote:
...TO RUIN OUR RIDE DOWN WITH SOME GAY ASS SKI BOOTS ON OUR FEET.

...and you have tried properly modded AT boots to be able to assess that?


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Boot Doubters… Watch this vid
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:07 am 
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BGnight wrote:
KGN wrote:
Those boots just look like a regular pair of softboots to me.
People who switch to hardboots want the walk mode. That's the deal. Walk mode.


Umm, yeah. Softboots are the point. Hiking in soft boots is fine. Never have been a problem except for kicking steps. I've never heard anyone I know saying they hate walking in them because of forward lean. That's never even crossed my mind. I could hike for miles of dry schwacking in my T1's and old salomons with no problems whatsoever.


Walk mode for walking is nice. But walk mode for skinning is what he is talking about. Make no mistake, the rearward flex of the tlt 5 while skinning allows for much better stride and more efficient skinning. Period.

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