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 Post subject: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:53 pm
Posts: 18
Location: San Diego, CA
So I was day dreaming at work a few days ago and was trying to design a one piece hard boot binding in my head. I am not a mechanical engineer, or an engineer of any sort for that matter, so I started simple. The goal is a lighter, lower and stronger binding.

I ride Bomber's on my hard board and my wife has voile slider plates on her Khyber, so my simple mind is trying to combine the bails from my Bomber's to the simple and low slider plate. I found a place here in San Diego that has a 4 dimensional CNC machine that can cut titanium, so I was thinking of having the entire plate made of titanium. Granted Ti is 60% heavier than aluminum (I didn't know this until I started researching), but I figure I can have multiple cut outs like the one in the center of the current Voile slider plate.

Next comes the bails...as Barrows suggest in one of his many posts, if we can use Ti instead of stainless steel, we can both increase the strength and decrease the weight of the bails. The first problem I came up with is the levers. Assuming I scavenged the levers from an old pair of bombers, I would have to put them on the Ti rod as I was bending it, and I don't know if the lever would get in the way of the bender. I am not even sure it is possible for me to bend Ti rod in my garage.

The bigger challenge is how to attach the bails to the plates. Originally I had envisioned simply drilling a hole in the side of the plate and making the side wall a little deeper/wider so that a small t-nut could fit between the puck and the inside of the plate. Then I would just put a bolt through the eye on the bails and thread it into the t-nut. I am not sure this will work because I would never be able to change boots (or more specifically sole lengths). The next thought was a slot rather than a hole, but with the pressures we put on our bindings, I think the bail would move in the slot while we were riding. I suppose I could use a bail more like the Voile plate bindings and simply cut a few notches for a bail to fit into. Again, I don't know if that would give me enough adjustability to account for different sole lengths

So this is where I'm stuck. Does anyone else have a design for a hard boot splitboard binding in their head and care to share? Do you have a way to improve my notional design? Am I out of my mind for trying to design something like this? Let's hear it.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Posts: 291
Location: kelowna bc canada
Sometimes when you make things adjustable it adds weight.if you just make them for your boots then thatcan simplify things alot.
Ive thought of a project similar to this as well and maybe we can pool info.
I know fin at bomber has made ti bails in the past but discontinued it because it was maxing out the machine that he was bending them. I've bent .25 inch ti rod 6/4 alloy in the past and the problems i ran into with it is that it doesnt like sharp bends or any kind of notching that you would get if you used a vise.Don't use heat on it as it reacts with the atmoshere and makes it brittle.
That said i believe you can build a set of bails out of it by designing it with a larger radius bend and threading on nuts and using shoulder bolts that bomber uses and sell as spare parts.
A slider plate made out of ti would cost a mint lol.I could see material cost running at around 500 plus the cost in time to cut the stuff would be more as well.
What i envisioned is a plate much like fuses usind 6061 t6 alloy that had material thick enough on the side of the plate to thread on the shoulder bolts and milled out where its not needed.
Levers i would use catek as they are removable and then lighten them up abit.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Good ideas here, keep brainstorming! I have been e-mailing a little bit with Will at Spark, and Fin at Bomber, trying to get these guys a little more interested in developing a lighter, lower, plate binding for splits. Both of them see limited interest (market potential) for splitboard plate bindings, and are hesitant to invest much R and D time in a product they may not be able to sell many of.
Of course, a commercial binding would have to be adjustable to different boot sizes-Will seems like a pretty sharp designer/engineer to me, and I bet he could come up with something really trick if we got him motivated enough. I would love to see a machined slider plate (similar to the Fuse) that had multiple mounting points for bales. I suspect ti bails are going to be very difficult to bend precisely to shape (and hence, expensive) but I think stainless will be fine, and does not need to be as thick a diameter as Bomber or Catek (I think they are around 7 mm). A 5 mm bail would save substantial weight, without the added expense and complexity of going to titanium.
I would suggest contacting Will at Spark (through their website contact) with ideas and enthusiasm for a better splitboard plate binding. Maybe if he gets enough enough demand from people he will invest some time in coming up with something really great.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:36 pm
Posts: 382
Location: Lethbridge, AB
I've been thinking about the same thing.

Take the bomber bits which offer big adjustment and mount to the Voile plate, then the second bomber bit that mounts to them for micro adjustment, combine them and the Voile plate into a single piece that's non-adjustable and boot size specific then install the bomber bails.

They'll be slightly lower, and probably a bit lighter.

The market for these really should be almost as big as the Fuse/Ignitions. People need to get past the hard boot hang up. I've been blown away so far with how they ride - nowhere near as "bad" as I thought and the uphill with Dynafit toe pieces is a dream.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:22 am
Posts: 255
Location: The Kootenays
treepilot wrote:
The market for these really should be almost as big as the Fuse/Ignitions...People need to get past the hard boot hang up.

The second phrase prevents the first phrase from being correct.

Softbooters will never move over in enough volume for these to make economic sense.

BCRider has probably tried more combinations of gear than most of us will ever see...and he won't go near hardboots. If he can't be convinced to give them a reasonable try, there's not a chance that "joe splitboarder" is gonna do it...


gary

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am
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Location: Colorado
In The Mountains:

Have you ever used a good hard boot set up?

"BCRider has probably tried more combinations of gear than most of us will ever see...and he won't go near hardboots. If he can't be convinced to give them a reasonable try, there's not a chance that "joe splitboarder" is gonna do it..."

Has BCR ever used a good hard boot set up?

I ask these questions because I see a lot of people on these forums, and elsewhere, talking about how hard boots cannot work well, or ride well-but the people making these statements are usually ill informed: ie, they have never ridden a well sorted hard boot set up.

I have been riding since 1983, not counting Snurfers before that. I have ridden every possible snowboard boot setup in the following order:
Sneakers-Sorrels-PMBs in highback bindings-Snowboard hard boots in plates-Step ins (Switch and Clicker)-Soft Boots-and Hard AT boots.
The set up I am riding now (see signature) is the best performing boot binding combination I have ever ridden.
The attitude that just dismisses hard boots without ever experiencing them is not needed, and hampers development of better products for us riders.
I am not saying that that every rider should ride hard boots, but I am saying that those without any meaningful experience with them should at least understand that they have no place commenting on how hard boots actually can perform.
The only reason I really care about this is that the attitude of ignorance that is generally expressed by those who diss hard boots holds back developement of better products for snowboarders.
Treepilot probably rode more vert this season than most splitters will in five seasons-he is new to hard boots, and is already seeing the big advantages they have.

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http://protectourwinters.org/
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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:22 am
Posts: 255
Location: The Kootenays
barrows wrote:
In The Mountains:

Have you ever used a good hard boot set up?
Yep.

It's all I use. Dynafit toepieces for the up and my own designed canted pucks for the down.

I didn't say that hardboots are a poor choice, I merely highlighted the idea that softbooters need to get past the hardboot hang-up. And until they do, the market for hardboots will be non-economical.
And if we can't get a guy like BCRider to give them a try...what chance have we getting the average softbooter to switch?

Gary

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:18 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:08 pm
Posts: 378
Location: near munich
This are 2 difrerent religions - hard and sooftboot rider

i take for long and hard tours ( icey tours ) Hardboot, the old dynafit TLT, and a 3 pice board.
On funny days, new fresh powder i ride sooftboot and a 2 pice board.
A snowboardtour is most time uphil 80 % 20 % . Some guys can ride 2 systems - with no diferents .
For a good set up on volie slider ( hardboots shoesizze biger 43) is the slider track to short - for hardboot is importand a low stand , big rotationspoint angel for long steps in walk modus . and a overstand of the shose in riding modus. i bend special for hard boots longer slider track , and no mounted the lowest an lightes binding on the longer slider ........
noted this pictures shows only me prototype not for comercial sell - the patent owner is Volie :thumpsup:

Image

Image

Markus

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:34 pm
Posts: 291
Location: kelowna bc canada
In some respects he is right when he says its not economical. If it was it would be sourced out to china that has cheap labour to be massed produced. There a far easier ways to make a living than manufacturing in North America, but what we do good in is niche markets.
I'm pretty much game to prototype one up for someone local(tours in rogers area for test riding) for the cost of materials. what i have in mind would be lighter, lower to the board than anything out there ,hard or softboot.
Id be doing it for myself but i've just finished fabricating a board interface that doesn't use slider pucks and am going to be spending all my time on it next season.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:50 am 
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Location: Colorado
InTheMountains: Sorry, I guess I misunderstood your intent a little. I mostly agree that that "Joe Splitboarder" is unlikely to switch to a hard boot set up, at least at first... as "JS" is mostly going to choose his gear by what is fashionable, rather than what will actually perform best for the task at hand. It is a little dissappointing though, to see, other, very experienced riders, dissmissing the potential of hard boots without having enough experience with them to justify their opinions.
What I would like riders to realize, is that a hard boot, designed from the ground up for splitboarding, could be made to perform (flex) just as softly as any soft boot, at a lower weight, and with better features (as opposed to the "toy" boots most riders use now).
Part of the resistance to hard boots is also based on the fact that there are currently no hard boots designed and marketed specifically for splitboarding, and to make an AT boot perform really well requires a bit of ingenuity in terms of mods, and setting up the bindings. If a single manufacturer took the risk, and developed a really good hard boot for splitters, I predict it would be successful (it might take a few seasons to become accepted)-this is the "if you build it they will ride it" theory.
I think the potential market for such a product is much bigger than one might at first expect-considering the huge number of AT boots available, and the number of AT skiers vs. splitters I see in the backcountry. The Euros are just now starting to catch on to the Splitboard, and their mountains are generally very suited to the advantages a hard boot set up offers. I also think the release of "Deeper" is going to result in a mini boom in splitting in general.
Burton, thanks for your input-I understand what you are saying about the touring mode and low ride heights. There are two solutions: the best one is using Dynafit toe pieces on the board, I will always use Dynafit toe pieces, as nothing tours more efficiently. The other solution is to make a spacer and block up the touring bracket enough to provide clearance for the boot toe. Low ride height (in snowboard mode) is really desireable for most riders.
As far as being "not economical", I really do not agree with this-yes, compared to mass produced items this attitude has some validity, and I do not expect that anyone is going to become very wealthy by producing splitboard plate bindings. But companies like Venture, and Spark, have proven that one can have a modestly successful business building high performance products in the US to suit the needs of the true backcountry enthusiast.

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Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:08 pm
Posts: 378
Location: near munich
@ barrows

Cool you understad my crazy wirten , but
you think dynafit toe pieces are the lightes system on board - I said No- an old silfretta system is the lightes .

Image

i like to youse things for walk and ride - when you youse the slider track for climb up - you dont can for get it for the riding modus - dont laugh - i forget the slider on a tour with dynafit toe pieces....

the wight is a big point for climbing up. dynafit to a special bindingsystem for hardboot - years ago we had an orginal sooftboot with dynafit holes . Deelux tour spark nt..
Image

it wos great because - sooftbootbindings on your daypack- the same problem dont foget it in the home town .... the best hardboot for riden is the old dynafit trour tlt2 - i ride this with a sooftboot inliner ... no dynafit toe pieces. so i can change every time my system between hard and sooftboot - for soft i ride fuse and light rail .... you see i dont can say with system is the best for all .
i make a prototype of boot - an od DACHSTEIN BOOT WITH DYNAFIT HOLES AND HEADSOOFTBOOT - A CRAZY CUTTING GLUING AND SWING JOB - IT WORKS - BUT NOT PERFECT .


burton

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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Location: Argentina Mendoza
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: VOILE LIGTH RAILS + VOILE PLATES OR ANOTHER HARD BOOT BINDING :drinks: :drinks: :drinks: IF THIS POSSIBLE I WILL BUILD SOME LIKE THAT.

MY RAILS OR EZ RAILS :bananas: :bananas: :bananas: :bananas:


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 Post subject: Re: Let's design a one piece hard boot binding
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:47 am
Posts: 26
Location: Canada
I think Bomber should sell their Sidewinder binders in a splitboard version, as long as they had some sort of built in canting.

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