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 Post subject: DIY split, the dream is over. Fix advice?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Took the splitty inbounds again - for maybe the 4th or 5th day that I've ever ridden it. Was carving HARD on the groomers, flexing it pretty good in moguled out chutes and tree runs, and last run before lunch I noticed that my bases were offset from each other (as in, not flush but close to 1/4" off) in the middle of my board. WTF?

Slide off the binding plates and ... whoa, delam. My homemade split = epic fail. I unscrewed the binding puck where one of the skis delaminated, here are some pictures.

Image
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So you may notice an abundance of holes. First of all, the big ones are the default Burton binding insert holes. The epoxy filled set to the right are the old ones. I re-drilled and set-back my stance to get the new ones.

Here is a critical point: to reduce holes, I re-used one of the original holes from where the binding puck was first installed. I put a drop or two of epoxy to add some bite back to the threads, and then after the epoxy cured I re-installed the binding puck.

It appears that the re-used hole was the epicenter of the failure, and there may now be some core damage where the screw ripped out. Consequently the top-sheet delaminated and it looks like the other screws pulled up a little but not with the same kind of failure from the original hole.

Do you think there is too much core damage to fix? OR can I epoxy and clamp the board, and find some good way to get the binding screws back in? Helicoils? Re-fill with epoxy and redrill in old locations?

I hope I'm not hosed - it's my first, and only splitboard and was hoping for a good late spring in the Sierra and Cascades :( . I can't really afford a new split, but maybe I can afford to transfer the hardware to another DIY.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:57 pm 
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Location: PNW Hood Canal
SM, that is a location that I'm not accustomed to seeing delaminations. As a lifetime solid board rider I have seen and reparied many delams at tip tail and sidewals. I do not know about reparis that close to the epicenter of your binding installation. What I believe is that if you want to salvage that board for at least the rest of this season I would do the following:

Get your hands on some of the T nut inserts of choice so that you can reinstall not with the DIY screws, but by installing all the way through the board. Locate your stance and drill those holes. Pry open the delam and then ensure it drys completely. Repair the delam with some slow cure epoxy that you heat to work into every nook and cranny inside. Take care not to get epoxy into the threaded holes of your newly drilled and inserted T nuts. Once you get your epoxy in there you may be able to clamp as well as install some screws to bite down to further press the topsheet to the bottom by using the newly placed T-nuts. If you keep the epoxy clear of the threads there should be no difficulty removing those screws to later install the pucks, or you can install the pucks at the same time as you place the delam binding epoxy. Let it dry, exceptionally well. I would also lightly sand then reseal your center cut, maybe some water got in there and added to the compromise of the puck screws.

Good luck, see what everyone else says and if you have questions about my post let me know.

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Mojo 171 / ST 178 / C-Split 165 / DIY Johan 162
Sparks Ignition II's / Mr. Chomps
DC Torch / Lowa Structura EVO AT


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:04 pm 
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good advice mumbles ... but do you think I could try to epoxy the delam before doing the T-nuts? Just curious what your (and others) thoughts are about the order of this.

-SchralphMacchio


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:33 pm 
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Location: PNW Hood Canal
Since you have a DIY kit and not a universal puck mount kit I think that you may benefit from inserting the T nuts and then using those four points to all compression to your epoxy as it cures. Based on the width of the area that is delaminating I think the more points of compression you can get the better. That is just my opinion, but if you sent your board to me to repair, that is likely the process I would employ. Since you already had the DIY pucks mounted I think I would consider where you want them relocated to, staying about 1/2" or so away from the existing holes that show damage. Didn't you say you had erroneously centered your stance? Now you can put it where you want it this time around.

If you invest in the fancy P-tex covered T nuts you can make this version nice and clean and I think you'll be fine strength wise. I do suggest that every time you are splitting or reassembling that you should take a good look at your board just to make sure it is not coming apart. Better apart when you are at the top or bottom than while descending and ripping it out.

Good luck, let us know what you decide to do and how the process works for you.

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Mumbles...addicted thanks to sb.com
Mojo 171 / ST 178 / C-Split 165 / DIY Johan 162
Sparks Ignition II's / Mr. Chomps
DC Torch / Lowa Structura EVO AT


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:55 pm 
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Location: Western Washington
Definately repairable. You need a good quality epoxy for the repair, and the t-nut inserts for your pucks. 2 minimum per puck, 3 would be best for the front pucks. I saved my 178 Oxygen split that was delamed the way yours is. Ski screws will just pull again, even if they are epoxied in. Mumbles should remember the base of mine, he saw it Tuesday....

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:04 pm 
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Jon's got a great point, he opted to use the p-tex covered T nut inserts for his board and his looked absolutely perfect. More value to the fact that you can save your ride if you are up for the project. Not sure what kind of time you have on your hands, but you could be out riding before you even realize that your board is out of commission. One or two days to extreme dry (without overheating) the delam area while you shop for your repair supplies. One decent shop session to get the insert holes positioned and drilled, then the epoxy and compression of the layers. One or two days to dry and fully cure and you are not even missing the next weekend. Hell, you could send your board to me, I like that kind of work.

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Mumbles...addicted thanks to sb.com
Mojo 171 / ST 178 / C-Split 165 / DIY Johan 162
Sparks Ignition II's / Mr. Chomps
DC Torch / Lowa Structura EVO AT


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 Post subject: xxx
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:53 am 
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Location: near munich
the heat at your speed cutting kills your board...

notice - a burton DYD split need s a slow hand ... first drill the insert s in more than 2 , 3 steps out . slow slow wait any time -cool dow and cool it with water ...

burton

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 Post subject: Re: xxx
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:02 pm 
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burton wrote:
the heat at your speed cutting kills your board...

notice - a burton DYD split need s a slow hand ... first drill the insert s in more than 2 , 3 steps out . slow slow wait any time -cool dow and cool it with water ...

burton


Oh believe me, I know. Big mistake that I learned firsthand. It f'ed up the Ptex in the base, but hey it still rode fine until the delam.

Next time I'm using a different blade, backing off on the inserts, and going much slower.


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 Post subject: xxx
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:19 am 
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Location: near munich
dont cry .....
it is no time over - it is a 2 pice board .....
next step rescue the board.


next run is : put the inserts out . fill up the gap with a epoxi resin like water - it is a special repair resin with a high flow speed. bring the uper and lower bellt in position with to clamps an 2 pices of hardwood.

let ist a good time curried .

next step , cut the wood out of your side cut - so diep like the inserts .
this is the room for your new sidewalls . it is the best way to repair your board . and became new siedwalls . the new side walls - go to skibuilders.com and by tham at there home page . ore fill the new sidewall s room up with a mix as ABS milling dust in a mix with epoxi resin..... it is a secret...... of wildschnee


burton

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:06 pm 
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so, my friend makes skis as a hobby (and possible business) and he hooked me up with some sweet clamping and a special type of epoxy resin he made for his skis. Then he cleaned up the holes and dropped in helicoils to assure that the wood would not fail. Next up we dripped in some wood glue to the helicoils to ensure water-seal and re-mounted the binding pucks. I'll see how it rides soon ...

Anyway, I'm pretty sure burton was right about the Burton inserts. The heat from cutting - and especially the way I did it with an abrasive wheel instead of a ripping blade - heated the epoxy holding the topsheet to the board to well above it's Tg, and probably started breaking down the cross-link bonds in the material. Our theory is that this was the source of the delamination, and then once the topsheet went it didn't take much force from carving to pull the screws up out of the holes.

Hopefully it holds the rest of the season!


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 Post subject: Re: DIY split, the dream is over. Fix advice?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:42 am 
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What is ???

ride ore die the Board ???


Burton

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 Post subject: Re: DIY split, the dream is over. Fix advice?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:58 am 
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burton wrote:
What is ???

ride ore die the Board ???


Burton


Interesting thread bump burton, as I just got my 2nd DIY Burton Supermodel tested out last weekend.

Just as an epilogue, after the board was repaired I took it on 3 more days of touring before it pulled out again in the same place. basically, the helicoil pulled out so I figured the core was done and I didn't want to deal with T-nuts on that board so I started over.

I pulled off all the hardware, got some ptex tnuts and split another Burton Supermodel with a proper cutting blade:
http://www.metaldevil.com/whatis.html

This blade allowed me to cut the binding inserts with no problem, and at the same time clear wood chip and keep the board cool. The problem with metal cutting blades is that they cut too hot and don't clear enough chip to be used on wood. This thing worked just fine.

So far, the new board has not failed yet, but then again I've only had one day on it!


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 Post subject: Re: DIY split, the dream is over. Fix advice?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:11 pm 
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yeah.... devils cuting maschine
more luck with the second sm. :thumpsup:

i drill 4 - 6 times each insert - the old supermodel had problems with delamination.... some guys say it comes from the cap ... i dont belive it ...



I build this 2 pice supermodel split in 2005 with inside edges and voile pucks ....

Image


burton

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