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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:54 pm 
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Jason: Do you need room for an extra large inside ankle bone? I ask because, due to a bad ankle break back in HS, I have an extra large inside (medial) ankle bone, which is also sensitive to pressure. I deal with this in any boot, it hurts in both hard and soft boots, and to some extent I just have to deal with some discomfort on long days. What really helps alleviate this kind of problem is proper foot support, to keep the foot from pronating, if this is what you are dealing with, maybe you have already consulted a pediatrist, or at least a really good boot fitter and had some good custom insoles/orthotics made? The way my ankle is, I cannot do any riding without a really good, supportive, custom insole, no matter the type and model of boot.

Snurfer: like I said, I have no problem with folks who choose to ride soft boots, what bothers me is less experienced folks spreading mis-information. The F3 is not even an available boot now, and it is a heavy, big boot. Comparing that to what we ride in is apples to olives...
Like I said, cost is not really a concern for me, but for those whom it is, it is not necessary to spend huge amounts to test the waters, one just has to be a little diligent. One of my partners (now in TLT6s) started out by finding a pair of TLT3s or 4 s for $40 at gear shop used sale. He then spent another $100 getting a new liner custom molded and having some buckles replaced. The resulting boot weighed about the same as the TLT5 and rode very well for him (it was quite soft). He paired it with Volie Mountain Plates (cheap). Next season Will's Spark plates will be available for those who are OK with Voile pucks, at a very affordable price. I have sold used Dynafit toe pieces for cheap on this site as well.
Now putting together kit as above will not perform as well as using the latest and greatest: mostly because the board interface design of Phantoms is superior to anything else (hence the copying by Plum and Karakoram for next season) but it will still be adequate for one to experience many of the benefits of this approach and decide for themselves.

If folks are not interested in trying it, that is fine with me, but I fail to see the reason in spreading mis-information about the potential performance advantages of the system, and I will continue to try and set the record straight everytime I see someone doing so.

Taylor: Welcome to Colorado! I suspect when you start getting out with guys like HFT and MountainDog you may be re-considering Phantom/TLT5/6 set ups.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:25 pm 
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Thanks for ALL the input! I went with a hb, the dynafit one. Just a touch wider than the tlt 5/6, tad heavier too. $350 new from a local shop.

Now to find bindings?


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:55 am 
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Since we're talking about facts (or FACTS if you're Barrows), it would do us all some good to remember that there are plenty of soft-booters climbing and shredding bolder, steeper, longer and more impressive lines than we're ever likely to do. When someone on this forum climbs and shreds the Hossack-MacGowan, or links the Grand, Middle, and South Tetons in a day and says they couldn't have done it without their hardboot setup, that will be an assertion worth considering. Currently, "the choir" usually sounds like a bunch of geeks tinkering with model airplanes in their garages.

Last summer, I had a bit of a pucker-fest on the steepest line I've climbed and ridden, on Castle Mountain in the Beartooths. I reached a particularly exposed spot about halfway up where I made a mental note to not to climb something like this again without a fully rigid crampon and a more supportable (i.e. "hard") boot. This was the last route of the season for me, and I had the summer to save some $$ for a shiny new pair of TLTs and Phantoms, as well as to ruminate on this experience, but in the end didn't pull the trigger. We've heard that "a poor workman always blames his tools", and I couldn't rule out that my experience on Castle had simply been triggered by feelings of exposure, fear of the unknown, etc... and really had nothing to do with my equipment. Certainly my setup was up to the task as I did finish and shred the line.

So OP, enjoy your new toys, but if they don't work for you, remember that you won't be limiting yourself by "reverting" to a soft boot setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:32 am 
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Nick: I really do not understand your point? I did not hear anyone blaming their tools for failure (or success) on a given line?
Indeed, I have climbed and ridden some fairly serious steeps using soft boots and crampons (and a solid board for that matter), of course it is possible to do so.
I advocate for a hard boot system for all backcountry splitboarding, and I also use my hard boots on those rare inbounds days as well, because they ride better for me. Just like Mark Hartley, and Joey Vosburgh.
And, I think you may be cherry picking your Teton snowboard descent history? I am sure you are aware that most of the serious lines in Tetons got their first snowboard descents by the likes of John Griber and Stephen Koch riding in hard boots.
Here in Colorado, the most serious lines around have been descended by both hard and soft boot riders.
But, clearly, the skill and experience of the rider is what matters, not the gear. Anyway, one could choose to drive across the country with a horse and buggy, or they could use an automobile, either will get one there!

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:42 am 
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Yeah and I drive a diesel vw. Its front wheel drive with a lsd and gislaved studded snow tires. Is a four wheel drive better in the snow? Totally depends on the driver right! Im not driving off road of course, because that is what a splitboard is for. And part of my decision is just being curious because all my past riding is not a hb.

If I don't check it out I would always be curious about trying it. So here I go . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:06 pm 
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barrows wrote:
Nick: I really do not understand your point?


Are you sure Barrows? You reiterate it nicely later on in your post:
Barrows wrote:
But, clearly, the skill and experience of the rider is what matters, not the gear.


I don't think people consider that fact enough when making decisions decisions like these.

...and haven't we had enough Teton history discussions on here?


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:14 pm 
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"...and haven't we had enough Teton history discussions on here?"

:clap:

Well, I guess I just assume that most folks are not going to equate better gear with being a more skilled/experienced rider, perhaps my bad. I sure do not look at it that way. Although I do admit that with my 30 years of experience I am much less likely to tolerate bad gear these days.
I do think that better gear can result in one having more energy to deal with the riding situation, or a big day, rather than having to fuss about with gear. I guess to me the best gear just disappears into the background and is just not consideration when out riding.
Online, and at home, then gear considerations come into play more... Like I work on boot mods mods at home, and carpet test, etc. In the field I concentrate on safety, line considerations, keeping fueled and comfortable, and being as efficient as possible, while having as much fun as possible.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:41 pm 
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barrows wrote:
Taylor: Welcome to Colorado! I suspect when you start getting out with guys like HFT and MountainDog you may be re-considering Phantom/TLT5/6 set ups.

Thanks. Big mountains and more consistent snow seasons will be a welcome change of pace. I look forward to feeling out an AT system. We'll see if it takes.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:37 am 
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barrows wrote:
Jason: Do you need room for an extra large inside ankle bone? I ask because, due to a bad ankle break back in HS, I have an extra large inside (medial) ankle bone, which is also sensitive to pressure. I deal with this in any boot, it hurts in both hard and soft boots, and to some extent I just have to deal with some discomfort on long days. What really helps alleviate this kind of problem is proper foot support, to keep the foot from pronating, if this is what you are dealing with, maybe you have already consulted a pediatrist, or at least a really good boot fitter and had some good custom insoles/orthotics made? The way my ankle is, I cannot do any riding without a really good, supportive, custom insole, no matter the type and model of boot.



Hey Barrows,
It's not my ankle bones above the joint. From looking at a few detailed pictures of the anatomy of the foot I think it's the navicular bone that is giving me all the problems. I'll admit that it's been a long time since I talked to a doctor about it and through trial and error I've found that blue superfeet are about the only thing that doesn't leave me with cramped up feet. I'll see if I can spend some time this summer trying to get my feet sorted out.

I went to see a doctor when I sprained an ankle when I was 20 and they x-rayed my injured ankle/foot. I could hear the doc in the next room over while he was looking at the film and he called another doctor in to take a look too. They said something about never having seen anything like it and thought that I had broken my foot, not just sprained my ankle. Then they asked to x-ray my other foot to compare and it turned out they were both the same. I'm just cursed with dead flat feet that are the widest at the arch. With the feet that I have I should have taken up swimming.

Even in my BD Primes I get blisters on the underside of my navicular after about 7 hours of touring and those are known to be made on a bathtub last.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:58 am 
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Jason: Yeah, that sounds like it could be a real problem. I was an apprentice bootfitter for a season in Crested Butte, and we made Peterson custom insoles (hard plastic, very good, but only if the guy making them is very skilled). I learned to make these insoles with the goal of getting the foot supported such that the ankle joint was in a neutral position (no pronation or supination). We were taught to find the neutral position by checking the Navicular: the goal was to have the Navicular equal on both the medial and lateral sides of the ankle. That is, the Navicular should not be protruding more on either side of the ankle. Typically, most people pronate to some degree (collapse to the medial side), and this makes the navicular bone protrude a little on the medial side (inside).
I have pretty severe pronation on my left ankle, due to the ankle break, and the Navicular sticks out a lot when my foot is not properly supported-that little Navicular bone can be pretty painful.
Some boots are certainly worse than others in this regard: but the real solution is to work with either a really good bootfitter or a podiatrist on orthotics or really good custom insoles. In my experience a really good custom insole can support the foot well enough that the navicular will not protrude so much, and pressure on it will be relieved, at least to some degree.

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Never Summer Prospector 167X, furberg 173 DIY, Dynafit TLT5/6 Mountain , Phantom Bindings, BD Glidelite Skins
Quiver Killer inserts

http://protectourwinters.org/
http://14ersnowboardproject.homestead.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:17 am 
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here's the deal. I didn't read this entire thread as I feel like I didn't need to. I already know the players and all of their moves.

If you ride unmodded ill-fitted hardboots you really don't have the experience or knowledge to make a comparison or judgement on hardboots. Unfortunately that is one downside they just don't ride well out of the box. it's like buying a dirt bike with slick, city tires and complaining that dirt bikes suck because they slide around on the trail.

if you have never toured in a modern generation hardboot you have zero frame of reference for how amazing the touring actually is.

every mountain worth climbing or descending has already been done for the most part, most likely by people in wool sweaters with leather boots and barrel skis. there's not point in arguing that, however if everyone rippping in soft boots tried a good modded boot they would be like "oh damn, this is what efficient feels like. clip on crampons are rad, kicking steps with a hard toe is rad, having a thin boot that I can actually climb in is rad, having a boot that I can dry out in a few hours at camp is rad, having a boot shell that will last for years is rad, having 60degrees of walk motion is rad, etc..."

I am a much better tourer in hardboots and really they have given me the confidence to take my mountaineering skills up a notch. recently I did a fall you die 3000ft semi-technical (steep booting up to 60degrees, multipitch climbing with board on my back ascent in my tlt5's that I would have not even considered in softboots. props to the people that still do that shit in softboots, I just don't understand why you would when a better option is available? oh and there is little to no difference on the down, if you mod your boot properly.

and I don't know why everyone has to play look at my dick when it comes to boots. grow up, plenty of good riders on both set ups. however a lot of dudes I know that crush it in soft boots would be absolutely insane in hardboots. for me they helped my skinning skills and speed, my confidence booting and climbing, and they are much lighter on the up. I would start skiing before I rode softboots again on a splitboard. i've never met anyone that made the switch and became a slower or less efficient skinner. it's a no brainer.

ps-people want to bitch about price that's irrational look at how much karakoram charges. you can get brand new dynafit ones for less than $300 right now (on sale at backcountry.com hit me up if you want a pair :wink: ). great boot for splitting. that's cheaper than some high end soft boots add $550 for the phantom interface and you are at $850 for new boots and interface. that's less than a new k-ram set up and boots and not that much more than sparks.

I doesn't matter what you ride but really unless you have "real" experience on both (not I bought boots but never modded them or even fitted them, or I tried ski boots on once) you really don't have a frame of reference to offer an opinion on this topic.


end rant.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:31 am 
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Truest quote in this pathetic, tired debate, "Currently, "the choir" usually sounds like a bunch of geeks tinkering with model airplanes in their garages."

I'm seriously considering going back to softboots based on the elitist attitudes of those who evangelize hardboots.

Get a life, go ride.

Andy


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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:12 pm 
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sigh

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