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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:48 pm 
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The whole time I rode HBs, on the climbs, I wondered what all the fuss was about. I wasn't any faster, they certainly aren't more comfortable, I didn't notice any reduction in weight manifested in feeling fresh at the top, etc. I didn't see an improvement in climbing, but the annoyance on the descents was palpable, so I 'de-evolved'. :thumpsup:

If they were better my skier buds would all kick my softbooting butt, but the opposite is true.

I made a rational assessment and decided I like softies. Others conclude the opposite. The only way to know is to try. Those who would spend all day trying to convince you your choice is wrong just had unhappy childhoods. :banghead: :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 am 
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Snurfer wrote:
Ask yourself this; how much money and time are you willing to part with? Is it worth the gamble to discover you don't like the overall experience of both ascending and descending? Are the ascents you are likely to undertake, really that tough?

If money is no option I'd say give HBs a try. I certainly loved the tech toe pieces, but the boots and bindings (within my budget) were considerably heavier than my sparks and imperials. That and the overall touring experience was just off.

:twocents:


Let's be careful not to spread confusing information though. with the right boots, Phantom bindings, and tech toe pieces, the hard boot system is considerably lighter than any soft boot set up. We are talking a couple of pounds here.
Yes, it is possible to get much heavier boots, but if one is going to enjoy a hard boot system, I would only recommend using light boots. See Summersgone's independent weight analysis on his set up in his Phantom Bindings review thread. And one can go lighter as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:04 am 
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barrows wrote:
Snurfer wrote:
Ask yourself this; how much money and time are you willing to part with? Is it worth the gamble to discover you don't like the overall experience of both ascending and descending? Are the ascents you are likely to undertake, really that tough?

If money is no option I'd say give HBs a try. I certainly loved the tech toe pieces, but the boots and bindings (within my budget) were considerably heavier than my sparks and imperials. That and the overall touring experience was just off.

:twocents:


Let's be careful not to spread confusing information though. with the right boots, Phantom bindings, and tech toe pieces, the hard boot system is considerably lighter than any soft boot set up. We are talking a couple of pounds here.
Yes, it is possible to get much heavier boots, but if one is going to enjoy a hard boot system, I would only recommend using light boots. See Summersgone's independent weight analysis on his set up in his Phantom Bindings review thread. And one can go lighter as well.
Let's be careful? Calm down Barrows, re-read my post - it is about cost to performance. If this is confusing it should be the least of ones concerns.
For the cost of your setup I could likely have two, or more complete (and varied) setups with comparable weight, and unlike your preferred kit; the selection from which to choose is quite varied.
Also consider the fact that not everyone's touring entails the same demands as yours, therefor the net gain for some is going to be minimal relative to the cost incurred to get the specific gear you are referring to. That is my point. . .
So relax dude, I'm not calling anyone a kook or fruit booter, just giving the OP an alternate opinion. In my reality, cost analysis trumps weight analysis and I'm sure this reality extends to others on the forum.
Have a nice day :guinness:

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:45 am 
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I ride a hard boot system because it performs better for riding and touring. I have broken Voile pucks in half while riding, that interface is non-functional for me.
Yup, it costs more, but no more than a premium soft boot set up:

A pair of soft boots lasts me a single season, a pair of hard boots lasts me at least three seasons, so boot cost is a wash at best.
Phantom bindings are no more expensive than top line Karakorams.

Usually things which perform better cost more, I am a dedicated splitboarder and I prefer not to compromise my gear for price. I'll spend money on splitboarding gear, and compromise (price) in other, less critical, areas of my life. How much one spends on gear is a matter of personal preference and priority. Everyone is free to set their own priorities. The price is not anything which is unknown, so there is really no need to discuss that here. The thread is about the effectiveness of various systems.
Suggesting that the weight of a hard boot system is more than that of a soft boot system is misleading and inaccurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:24 am 
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philip.ak wrote:
The whole time I rode HBs, on the climbs, I wondered what all the fuss was about. I wasn't any faster, they certainly aren't more comfortable, I didn't notice any reduction in weight manifested in feeling fresh at the top, etc. I didn't see an improvement in climbing, but the annoyance on the descents was palpable, so I 'de-evolved'. :thumpsup:

If they were better my skier buds would all kick my softbooting butt, but the opposite is true.

I made a rational assessment and decided I like softies. Others conclude the opposite. The only way to know is to try. Those who would spend all day trying to convince you your choice is wrong just had unhappy childhoods. :banghead: :mrgreen:


What setup were you using for HB? Using any random HB setup is not what I would call a rational assessment. The rest of your rant is anecdotal at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:51 am 
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barrows wrote:
Suggesting that the weight of a hard boot system is more than that of a soft boot system is misleading and inaccurate.


It all depends what you are comparing. I absolutely love the Phantom bindings, I think it's very cool to have such a quality item for splitboarders. If I was a serious climber and had tons of money I would consider it.
But you can't say it's always lighter than all softboot setups. Summersgone compared it to old Blazes with pretty heavy boots. Comparing it with a Magento/Carbon SL/Plum with some light Ride/32 boots and softboots might be lighter.

Hard vs. softboots will be an endless debate, just ride what you feel best on. It doesn't really matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:06 am 
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ieism wrote:
barrows wrote:
Suggesting that the weight of a hard boot system is more than that of a soft boot system is misleading and inaccurate.


It all depends what you are comparing. I absolutely love the Phantom bindings, I think it's very cool to have such a quality item for splitboarders. If I was a serious climber and had tons of money I would consider it.
But you can't say it's always lighter than all softboot setups. Summersgone compared it to old Blazes with pretty heavy boots. Comparing it with a Magento/Carbon SL/Plum with some light Ride/32 boots and softboots might be lighter.

Hard vs. softboots will be an endless debate, just ride what you feel best on. It doesn't really matter.


Of course, nothing is always lighter! hahahha. Someone could try and ride with some World Cup gate bashing boots, and it would be way heavier. But the FACT is, that the boots which work best (TLT5/6 or perhaps La Sportivas), and the bindings which work best (Phantom/Speed Ultralight) result in lighter system than any soft boot combo. Summersgone's set up was not even close to being the lightest set up possible, as he uses adapters for his toe and heel pieces, one can easily save another quarter pound by direct mounting. And this does not even begin to discuss the benefit of the low weight on the foot in tour mode.

The FACT is there is no soft boot system which is lighter than a well sorted hard boot system.

People should ride what they choose, I have no problem with that. And I am not trying to convince anyone that they should switch to hard boots if they are not interested. But I am tired of seeing mis-information being spread by folks who have their FACTS wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:02 am 
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The other fact is that not everybody fits into Dynafit boots. It's hard to hit those low weights in other boots.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:43 pm 
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You are picking at straws, it is nonsense.
With the advent of the TLT6, anyone, with the exception of the truly disfigured, can get an excellent fit in Dynafit boots. Problem is, many who do not have experience with fitting hard boots go to a shop, try the boot on, and decide it does not fit.
You cannot judge the fit of moldable liner boot without molding the liner. I do not get a comfortable fit in my TLT6s with an un-molded liner, but when the liner is molded, the fit becomes perfect.
If one has other issues, then the boot shell can easily be re-shaped by a good bootfitter to suit.
I have one partner with a super wide forefoot. He though he could not get a good fit in the TLT6. But, he consulted a good bootfitter, got the forefoot area punched, and now he says these are the most comfotable boots he has ever had.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:59 pm 
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I haven't tried the TLT6 but I talked to a boot fitter about it while I was trying to talk him into working a pair of TLT5s. The place that they need to be punched for me was close enough to the medial cuff pivot that he was concerned about screwing up the geometry on the pivot. He didn't think the TLT6 would be enough of a difference to make it work any better in that spot. I might just qualify as having a disfigured foot by italian standards. :(

Don't take it the wrong way, I still ride in HBs because I like adventures that require crampons and that usually favors hard boots.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Quote:
But I am tired of seeing mis-information being spread by folks who have their FACTS wrong.
Barrows my Scarpa F3's with Voile plates are heavier than my blazes and imperials (That is fact) and the later is superior for 'me' in all aspects of spltboarding that "I" do.

Quote:
The FACT is there is no soft boot system which is lighter than a well sorted hard boot system.
Fine, my point which does not distort any facts - did not dispute this. What I did say (for the third time) is that your well sorted kit, is exceedingly expensive compared to what most would agree is a well sorted soft boot kit. Just because 'you' don't approve of what others consider to be a well sorted soft boot kit, doesn't mean your opinion on said kit is fact, it's your opinion. Seems like you have a very selective interpretation of fact and opinion depending on whether its you making a statement, or someone else.

The OP asked "Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?" I contend that it depends on an unlimited array of variables. Just because you have a well defined set a variables for you doesn't make you the authority on what may be best for others. I get that you are passionate about your personal vision of the sport, but you come off pretty abrasive with your be all end all style proclamations. But whatever, I stand by my statement on my hard boot kit vs my soft bit kit being factual and that HB are not ideal for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:32 pm 
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The prohibitive factor for me trying an AT system has been financial risk and cost-benefit, along the lines of Snurfer's thinking. Good boots, Phantoms, and touring pieces approaches $1500. If I don't like it, I won't be able to recoup all of that money, which I could instead use to get a custom quiver board that I know I would love, while keeping my current boot, binding and interface system, which works and is already paid for. (Ta-da! - another board-buying rationale.)

My new strategy is incremental. I almost pulled the trigger on Phantoms in December but that plan got nixed by changing health insurance costs. I plan to do so this fall, and then try the system with some new Scarpa Matrix that were given to me. They are heavy but can be made soft enough. If it feels promising, I will continue on to some lighter Dynafits or La Sportivas. If it does not seem promising, I will resell the Phantoms, which I suspect will hold their value better than a fitted boot. The problem is that I will not be able to try the ideal kit in its entirety (with the best boots) prior to making a decision. But such is life. Also, going the AT route doesn't necessarily mean ditching the soft set up for me. I could easily see having both on different boards for different situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:21 pm 
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Yes better in all respects.

Taylor:
Quote:
The prohibitive factor for me trying an AT system has been financial risk and cost-benefit, ... Good boots, Phantoms, and touring pieces approaches $1500.


It does not have to cost $1500 dollars. I outfitted both my wife and I each for around $500 to $700 dollars each.

Scarpa F1s ($250 -350 from Sierra Trading Post)
Dynafit toe pieces and adapters (purchased used about $150 for both)
Bomber Sidewinder bindings (Paid Retail $300), Bomber Splitboard Bindings (use for $40) dollars), and score and modified Burton Race ($80 to $120 on eBay) to Burton Race Plate

Well with in the price of retail for Softboots and soft Splitboard bindings.

What it takes is time and diligently looking for bargains and closeouts, especially this time of year!

Eventually I will add the Phantoms or the new 2014-2015 Spark R&D HB Splitboard Plate Bindings.

The setup mentioned above is better than softboots for splitboarding, IMO; I now I tried the Driver Xs and soft boot bindings mounted Voile Plates. Noting I am bias, since I have been a HBer, since 1990.

Alas the one thing the did not work for is the Voile Mtn Plate binding. I could not get this to work.

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