But the idea was not to spam the BBS but offer some free advice from a fellow boot user. But no question I am not a snow boarder.
Lets see if I can sort through some of the early Internet misinformation and misrepresentation on the TLT6. Admittedly some of it clearly my fault @ C-T no matter how unintentional.
First up lets talk shells and add some definitive comparison numbers to the older TLT5.
My boots are 29s. BSL are the same @ 317mm Power strap is 30g with out hardware. One rivet in the Mtn, two bolts in the P version.
Shells, no tongue but with power strap, one shell TLT6 P CR 1050g TLT5 P TF 1010g TLT5 Mtn TFX 1000g
Liners: for one liner TLT6 P CR 288g TLT5 P TF 186g TLT5 Mtn TFX 326g *Intuition Pro Tour* 278g
Boots total weight, shell and liner, no insoles, one boot :
TLT6 P CR 1338g TLT5 P TF 1196g TLT5 Mtn TFX 1326g All are actual weights as delivered by the factory in the US with the available liners.
Walking? Yes there is a difference and you will feel it immediately between walking in a TLT5 and a TLT6. One is a full on lwt ski boot as predicted previous. The older boot is something special and "in between" a mtn boot and a full on ski boot. Because the sole flexes even that tiny 5mm I get substantially less heel lift in the TLT5. Less heel lift walking and skinning means you don't compact your liners as quickly in that same area. And you will have less heel lift on the down skiing I'd bet. The longer you walk on a hard surface in a TLT6 the more you will notice the lack of flex at the metatarsal that the earlier TLT5 boots has. If you are use to walking in a rigid ski boot then the TLT6 will be of little notice, easy enough to walk in and likely lighter than anything you have experienced prior, short of a full on Rando race boot. The shorter BSL will help as well for walking. If you have a TLT5 and thought of replacing it with the "better" TLT6 you might want to rethink that. Less difference between a Dynafit ONE and a TLT6 than the TLT5 and TLT6 series IMO. TLT6 might as well be a ONE to walk in. The slightly longer toe on the ONE makes it just that much more clumsy.
Skiing? I don't claim to be any great skier just been doing it a long time now. And to date the most difficult/steepest terrain I have ever skied has been on a TLT5. (Ps and Mtn btw) And I have been very happy with the TLT5 as a ski boot. Only for durability and small fit issues have I slighted the TLT5 but never how the boots skied.
The TLT6 however is a step up on skiing performance. The distinct lack of metatarsal flex which made walking and climbing more enjoyable in the 5s, is missing in the 6 and sucks by comparison. Please note I said "by comparison". As in a comparison to of 5 to 6. I am a 190# guy and more with kit on. The 2nd turn on a TLT6 I noticed the lack of sole flex. The TLT6 is a better ski boot because of the new lower shell and no toe bellows.
Snowboards? Come on guys these are both rigid ski boots by a snow boarder's standards. Both the Mtn and the P versions. And either will rip on even a fat 110mm+ down hill ski. If a ski boot is your thing on a snow board I suspect either version will work. You have the option of removing the tongue of this boot in any version. Same with the power strap. Remove it and make the forward flex a little softer in either boot. So there are options. Laterally they are both stiff boots. I don't see how the added metatarsal flex of the TLT 5 would add anything to a snowboard unless you actually do a lot of boot packing.
Climbing? I'll say it again. In my experience the TLT5 is undoubtedly a better climbing boot. If you are climbing in a ski boot now there is little incentive to change to the TLT6 IMO unless you are looking to drop weight or better your walk modestrike. Harsh but the TLT6 is not the boot (or it's near cousin IMO) that so wowed me in Chamonix a few years ago. But there it is. I'm not being a hater here. Just giving a honest commentary on the newest TLT6 as I see it. The early boot I was more than willing to fork over a $1000 for. So ya, I am still pissed the design effort went as it has. No one gave me either of these boots. I bought them with my hard earned cash. Just to reinforce the fact on how the fit differs I am typing this with a TLT5 on one foot and a TLT6 on the other at this very moment. When you can tell the difference walking down the drive way to the mail box in the boots you can only image how that will sort itself out in the hills. It is not a good sign when a few hours in the boots one is beginning to be painful and one isn't.
One of the things that the earlier TLT 5 series had for the moment was a bit of flex that not all AT boots have. And now no ski boots use that I know of. It isn't much (5mm?) but it is enough to notice after a long day in stiff boots. The newest DyNA version had already left the flex feature out. It is an advantage in a climbing boot imo. Disadvantage in a ski boot, plus the added weight is the reasoning behind that change in the new DyNA EVO and now the TLT6. If you took note you saw that change coming.
The Dynafit toe flex design that allows for a rigid sole boot for skiing, but flexible boot for walking. And imo the missing link for plastic climbing boots Simply brilliant..
FIT? Lots of Internet chatter on how wide and nasty the new last was going to be. My first pair of 6s were not my exact size. But I had the suspicion that even in my perfect 29 shell I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between 2mm in the arch/ ball of the foot and 1 mm on the outside ball of the of the foot. And I speculated no one else could tell the difference either. Liners will eat that all up and then some. Nice fit aid though. As are the same two extra insoles that still come in the boot box.
May be we need a world wide "Pepsi Challenge" to see what others come up with for "feel" on the new shell sizing internally?
So I took both my old and worn TLTP TX Palau liners and my previously heat formed Mountain's TForthotics installed and slid them into the TLT6. Amazing enough not only was the TLT6 not wider for my foot and fit but noticeably smaller! Yes smaller! Think not? Well same liners, same Super feet and same 29 shells. I have a TLT5 on my left foot and a TLT6 on my right. Been typing for an hour or so and getting up to walk around some. My arch is just starting to cramp and the outside ball of my foot is getting uncomfortably tight in the TLT6. Same old liners TX Palau liner mind you. Same result but a little more comfortable with the Mtn's TF-X. And some how I am not noticing that extra, huge, addition of 3mm in the new TL6. I think I know what they did to improve the fit on the TLT6 shell and the added insole might well be appreciated at some point. But the 6's instep is really tight no matter what insole I am using. Funny how I was just warned about that exact same issue this morning via email. And that owner of a TLT6 hasn't even molded/used his boots yet. For now at least I am not happy with dropping in my old inner boots and orthotic. It is not "happily ever after". The following day I spent a full 7 hours walking around and doing almost every thing you can do in a ski boot with out snow or skiing. Some where along the way the older TF-X liner loosened up enough in the TLT6 shell that it at least felt very close to the TLT5 shell for sizing. But the TLT6 always stayed a little tighter ...like one had added a mid sole to take up space in the TLT6. Which is exactly what Dynafit did to add some warmth to the boot.
A look at the bottom of the TLT5 boot shown above. This always reminds me of a mid '80s boot maker's unfinished answer.
A look at the bottom of the TLT6 boot shown above.. I like the additional insole and certainly makes the boot appear more finished. No question it has changed the fit for me. I get a tighter boot despite the added volume internally.
I also tried the CR liners for a little over a half day in both boot shells. 6 hrs total in that combo. Again no skiing just trying to figure out what combo of what I have will fit me the best for the intended use. For the third time I still give the nod to what feels like a smaller volume internally with the TLT6. I'll repeat the the specifics of my observation. I have less room in my TLT6 than I do in my TLT5s using the same minimalistic Palau/Dynafit TF foam liner or the TF-X and my cork Superfeet. YMMV but that is my personal experience to date. If I didn't know the inner volume had changed I would guess that Dynafit made no changes in the shell past adding the new, warmer insole.
left to right TLT5 and aTLT6
External volume? The cross section of the TLT6 shell at the ball of the foot is 6 or 7mm less than the TLT5. You can see it easily with your eye on a side by side comparison of shells, less so in a picture. In the world of climbing, generally less volume is a good thing. Not that it will matter from what I can see at this point but I'll take it.
Tongues? Now you get a pair of tongues with the 6. A black *stiff* and a lt green *soft*. I thought I could tell the difference between a hand flex of the black P and the green Mtn tongues on the 5s. You most certainly can tell the difference hand flexing the TLT6 tongues! And as I had hoped softer and harder than the original TLT5 tongue of any color. The newest TLT6 tongue is ever so slightly shorter in height but works just fine in the TLT5 for those that wondered. I couldn't tell any difference rug flexing/testing the black tongue in my TLT5 Mtns compared to the standard green MTN tongue however. Much as I wish it might be so.
Power strap? The TLT 6 has a new power strap. Gone is the big bump that kept the strap caught by the metal loop. I always just cut mine off. Now they have two small bumps on the strap end and you can take it out of the loop easily if you want to and the bumps keep it retained if you would prefer that option. Nice detail addresses from the previous boot. The strap however is much longer now than previous. (at least mine are) With ankles and the bottom of my calves the size of an 11 year old girls it is now unworkable for sizing. Way too big with the Velcro barely engaging on full wrap no tongue installed. It is slightly better with a tongue installed. If anyone has a pair of TLT5 power straps in decent shape that are two small I'll trade you straight up!??These are virtually unusable for me.
On the left is the TLT6 CR liner. Previous TF-X liner on the right. Lower positioned sock "stop", fewer laces but covering more on the inner boot. Almost a full inch taller and a much beefier tongue. And still the new CR liner is 38g lighter.
That pretty much says it all. Newest liner is not much lighter but it is some lighter. Impressive with the added features and hight. I don;t question it will be the most comfortable for skiing up hill or down. I am a big fan of the last generation of TFX lines as well. And as much as I like the original, the Palau TF liner, it could be more comfortable. I use an even lighter version in my PDGs and have similar issues on fit. Good but they could both be better. I have to use a custom orthotic in both shells to keep my feet happy for the day. Easy enough to mix and match or add a after market liner. Be sure to heat form your liners if you want the very best fit. No matter what Dynafit suggests. If they can be molded...mold them. No one in their right mind would ski a Intuition without heat molding/forming them. Get on that clue bus for all of Dynafit's liners as well.
Comparing the TF-X liner to the the newest CR liner? Besides the drop in the weight on the CR you get a slightly taller inner boot, much more reinforcement in wear areas and a deeper throat for easier entry and exit. The laces have eyelets higher on the inner boot and lower as well. The idea is a better fitting inner boot. The tongue of the CR inner boot resembles a full blown ski boot now. It is stiff and reinforced although you have to look closely if you don't have it at hand.
The flex portion of the cuff is more flexible going back wards and as rigid or more going forward with a limiter strap on the back of the inner boot. Not sure it works as they intended but no question Dynafit has made a real effort at having offering a much better all around inner boot.
Shell mods/boot fitting: At least now folks will not be so hesitant about blowing out the boots for fit issues. The metatarsal bellows made that all rather problematic on such a thin boot. A good boot fitter should be able to do it with rather easily now by comparison.
Variations? To date I have seen 5 versions of the TLT6. and 3 models. By levels of stiffness in the cuff material, more to less.. Carbon cuff, Fiberglass cuff and a Pebax cuff. Two liners, (maybe even three) which are the CR or Comfort Ready and the CL or Comfort Light. I am still a little unsure what we will see for actual liners but those are suppose to be their names with actual liners pictured below.
TLT6 P CR TLT6 P CL TLT6 C-ONE CL TLT Mtn CR TLT Mtn CL
Durability? Guy have been getting a couple of years from the boots generally. Some are still on the same boots from Fall of 2010. That amazes me. I am gentle on my gear for the most part and was worried about my own TLT5s in either version from the ski cutting I experienced on the boot shell. I have been reassured the Grilamid is more than up to the task. But then I have neither the desire nor the pocket boot to test them to failure. Seems a silly thing to worry about in a $1000 boot. I have not had problems with the hinge rivet however. Or the buckles for that matter other than not always wanting to stay shut.
The Buckles? The new buckle system for the most part are a nice improvement. More of them however. Still only 2 but they have added more adjustments and hinge points on the buckles that are there and an extra latch over the instep. Only a tiny gain in weight because of it. I really like the "snap" of the lower buckle and it now dbl pegs to lock it down. The first TLT had no peg on that buckle. The 2nd gen boots offered a single peg in the same buckle which helped. This new dbl peg buckle should have that issue sorted out. So I am hoping the instep buckle now stays shut on the crusty boot packs. The shell has a "dam" built around the lower instep buckle as well. That will help keeping the buckle closed as well.
Crampons? Grivels seem to be made for this boot. They fit like a glove out of the box. The others? Not so much. I've use the G20 and G22 on different occasions and prefer the G20s. Unusual as I am not generally a fan of mono points.
I've written a lot on the TLT Series of boots over the last couple of years. If the TLT6 is your introduction to the TLT family you have some catching up to do. I have no doubt the TLT5 Series of boots was a "game changer". The TLT6 may well be yet as well. The jury is still out. More here:
barrows sez: >In my opinion, the 6s are going to be better. The only drawback I see is the additional 1 ounce of weight in the shell of the 6 vs the 5.
Actual shell weights with power strap attached TLT6 P CR 1050g TLT5 P TF 1010g TLT5 Mtn TFX 1000g
50g is 1.7637oz per boot
>Personally, I would rather have the extra ounce of weight and the additional warmth and better buckles, both of which were weak points of the 5 which needed improving.
Buckles yes. Warmth?...not if the boot was used as intended and NOT for riding a lift. Classic case of using a piece of gear for something it was not designed for and bitching about it. It was originally designed as a Rando boot made for climbing and skinning UP and skiing DOWN.
>There is no need for the forefoot flex of the 5 in my opinion, in fact, the amount of flex was so miniscule (unlike the Scarpa) as to be almost non-existent anyway.
See my previous comments.
> As far as the liners go, all the Dynafit liners are weak
Inaccurate imo no matter what liner you'd like to compare with.
> I use Intuition for more comfort, warmth, and weight savings.
You might gain some warmth although I don't find that to be true if the boot is fitted correctly. No more comfort either if the liner is heat formed correctly. And that weight savings? Not so much.
TLT6 P CR 288g TLT5 P TF 186g TLT5 Mtn TFX 326g DYNA EVO/PDG liner 150g *Intuition Pro Tour* 278g
weight is listed for ONE inner boot
49g savings at most or 1.72842oz in my size 29s or a 11.5US with a Intuition. Or using the lwt Dynafit liners as much as 123g saved on the Intuition or 4.3387oz. And that is doubled counting both boots so just over 1/2#. That kind of weight starts to really count on the up.
> The Dynafit Mountain was also never available in the US with the lighter (and better) Palau made TF liners
That is true but the TF liners alone have been available on occasion as is the Palau DyNA/PDG liner that will work in the TLT Series as well and only 150g. Generally just a Euro only but occasionally the TLT Mountain with the TF liners have been sold in the US. Currently by GearX.
>you could only get the heavy and less moldable TF-X liners
Not quite "less moldable: The most recent TFX liner is very moldable and actually more comfortable for most than the TF liner was. Which is the reason we have a new CR liner based on the TF-X liner in the new TLT6. Spares are available as well from your Dynafit dealer. See my previous comments on fit and liners above.
>As for riding performance: the 6 Mountain should be the same as the 5, as the cuff is the same plastic and mold, so will flex the same, and the no tongue option is still available.
Almost right The TLT6 liner is beefed up in the tongue quite a bit. Think more of a full on ski boot tongue in the 6. My long time climbing partner and avid snowboarder for the past 30+ years (and in the TLT5 mtn as well for a hard boot which is not typically his fancy) says it won't change how the boot boards very much either way.
Given the choice for a hard shell on a split board boot I'd want the PDG. 2# even per boot in my size 29. No tongue or power strap. It is too thin to ride a lift with on a really cold day. The PDG really is a "ski running boot".
Thanks for the thorough post Dane. Sorry I dragged you over to the knuckle draggers forum and had I known you were going to follow the link I would have warned you how passionate we get about boots.
That said it was interesting to read the other topic. If you have the ear of anyone at Dynafit could you suggest a PDG with a pebax cuff? Even just a proto/proof of concept would be nice to try. I think that is the only issue in this discussion that I agree with Barrows on, softer lateral/medial flex is desired which is why splitboarders only discuss the Mountain version and not the Performance version of the TLT boots and why there is some hesitation to try the PDG boots.
Any comments on the ability for a boot fitter to work some magic on either the TLT5 or the 6? I stayed away from the 5 because I had heard that the bellows made it difficult to punch out at the pinky toe and that the thin shell made it difficult to punch out the midfoot at the arch. For that reason alone I did not get into the TLT5 and the rumors of what was changing for the TLT6 had me hopeful last season. Do you think the new lower shell will be any easier to work with or do I just need to find the right boot fitter in the Bellingham area to work with?
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am Posts: 1522 Location: Colorado
Some folks have managed to punch/stretch even the TLT5 a bit, but many boot fitters are not comfortable trying to do so. The Grilamid is apparently a little tricky to work. A benefit of the 6 not having the hinged area is that it will be easier for some shell punching in that area, see the pics, and it is clear why this would be. Unfortunate news so far, from Salewa NA, is that the CL (more flexible, lighter) liners will not be available with the TLT5 Mountain. Hopefully they will be available separately, or at least, for order from Europe...
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:08 am Posts: 128 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Please excuse a lowly softbooter from entering the fray, but I'm eventually thinking of coming over to the dark side, mainly because I'm looking to do more 'technical' style approaches (crampons etc), but y'all are scarin' me away with this techno hardboot mumbo jumbo!!!!
I think I'll have to go back to uni and get a post-grad degree in mechanical engineering!!!!
I have less room in my TLT6 than I do in my TLT5s using the same minimalistic Palau/Dynafit TF foam liner or the TF-X and my cork Superfeet
Previous TF-X liner on the right. Lower positioned sock "stop", fewer laces but covering more on the inner boot. Almost a full inch taller and a much beefier tongue. And still the new CR liner is 38g lighter
49g savings at most or 1.72842oz in my size 29s or a 11.5US with a Intuition. Or using the lwt Dynafit liners as much as 123g saved on the Intuition or 4.3387oz
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:17 pm Posts: 297 Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jason4, here is a quick data point for your consideration. My boot fitter was able to successfully (and extensively) punch/stretch my TLT5s without issue. I had nueroma surgery several years ago---the injury resulted from tight fitting shoes, specifically my snowboard boots. As a result, I have to be careful about boot width. I initially decided to avoid the Dynafit TLT5s because of potential fit issues----and went with Black Diamond AT boots (which have pleeeeeenty of room in the toe box). However, I was totally unsatisfied with the ride mode of the BDs after mods. I decided to risk it and went with the TLT5s last year. The boot fitter did a fantastic job and I couldn't be happier with the fit and ride quality of the TLT5s.
Just an fyi. I just bought a second pair of TLT5s from Sierratradingpost.com as a "stockpile for the future" item--so I am pretty confident that the boots can be stretched enough to meet my needs.
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:51 am Posts: 704 Location: Surfing or Splitboarding Downunder
Method I've been in hardboots for 3 years and have gone back to softs this year. Rode my 32 boot until I grabbed a pair of fitwells! OMG
They are insane Stiffer than my hardboots (scarpa, Garmont and BD) The boots are crampon compatible and will allow you to use your normal bindings. Definitely check this option out. Every one in the know in NZ was in them at NZ Splitfest. You've been there so you know what I'm talking about with the axes and crampons!!!!
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 am Posts: 1522 Location: Colorado
Brooks: sounds like a great set up, heck, maybe someday Fitwell will get the bulk and weight down on their boots, and Karakoram will produce some carbon fiber binding straps which will not break, and even I'll try a soft boot set up again... oh wait, the touring would still suck, oh well... Anyway, get those Intuitions molded up right, and your Fitwells will probably rock!