Forums Boots Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?
Viewing 20 posts - 21 through 40 (of 52 total)
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  • #676411
    Jason4
    443 Posts

    The other fact is that not everybody fits into Dynafit boots. It’s hard to hit those low weights in other boots.

    #676412
    barrows
    1490 Posts

    You are picking at straws, it is nonsense.
    With the advent of the TLT6, anyone, with the exception of the truly disfigured, can get an excellent fit in Dynafit boots. Problem is, many who do not have experience with fitting hard boots go to a shop, try the boot on, and decide it does not fit.
    You cannot judge the fit of moldable liner boot without molding the liner. I do not get a comfortable fit in my TLT6s with an un-molded liner, but when the liner is molded, the fit becomes perfect.
    If one has other issues, then the boot shell can easily be re-shaped by a good bootfitter to suit.
    I have one partner with a super wide forefoot. He though he could not get a good fit in the TLT6. But, he consulted a good bootfitter, got the forefoot area punched, and now he says these are the most comfotable boots he has ever had.

    #676413
    Jason4
    443 Posts

    I haven’t tried the TLT6 but I talked to a boot fitter about it while I was trying to talk him into working a pair of TLT5s. The place that they need to be punched for me was close enough to the medial cuff pivot that he was concerned about screwing up the geometry on the pivot. He didn’t think the TLT6 would be enough of a difference to make it work any better in that spot. I might just qualify as having a disfigured foot by italian standards. 🙁

    Don’t take it the wrong way, I still ride in HBs because I like adventures that require crampons and that usually favors hard boots.

    #676414
    Snurfer
    1448 Posts

    But I am tired of seeing mis-information being spread by folks who have their FACTS wrong.

    Barrows my Scarpa F3’s with Voile plates are heavier than my blazes and imperials (That is fact) and the later is superior for ‘me’ in all aspects of spltboarding that “I” do.

    The FACT is there is no soft boot system which is lighter than a well sorted hard boot system.

    Fine, my point which does not distort any facts – did not dispute this. What I did say (for the third time) is that your well sorted kit, is exceedingly expensive compared to what most would agree is a well sorted soft boot kit. Just because ‘you’ don’t approve of what others consider to be a well sorted soft boot kit, doesn’t mean your opinion on said kit is fact, it’s your opinion. Seems like you have a very selective interpretation of fact and opinion depending on whether its you making a statement, or someone else.

    The OP asked “Are soft boots as effective as hb going up the slope?” I contend that it depends on an unlimited array of variables. Just because you have a well defined set a variables for you doesn’t make you the authority on what may be best for others. I get that you are passionate about your personal vision of the sport, but you come off pretty abrasive with your be all end all style proclamations. But whatever, I stand by my statement on my hard boot kit vs my soft bit kit being factual and that HB are not ideal for everyone.

    Shark Snowsurf Chuna
    Voile V-Tail 170 BC
    Voile One Ninety Five
    Spark R&D Arc

    #676415
    Taylor
    794 Posts

    The prohibitive factor for me trying an AT system has been financial risk and cost-benefit, along the lines of Snurfer’s thinking. Good boots, Phantoms, and touring pieces approaches $1500. If I don’t like it, I won’t be able to recoup all of that money, which I could instead use to get a custom quiver board that I know I would love, while keeping my current boot, binding and interface system, which works and is already paid for. (Ta-da! – another board-buying rationale.)

    My new strategy is incremental. I almost pulled the trigger on Phantoms in December but that plan got nixed by changing health insurance costs. I plan to do so this fall, and then try the system with some new Scarpa Matrix that were given to me. They are heavy but can be made soft enough. If it feels promising, I will continue on to some lighter Dynafits or La Sportivas. If it does not seem promising, I will resell the Phantoms, which I suspect will hold their value better than a fitted boot. The problem is that I will not be able to try the ideal kit in its entirety (with the best boots) prior to making a decision. But such is life. Also, going the AT route doesn’t necessarily mean ditching the soft set up for me. I could easily see having both on different boards for different situations.

    @sun_rocket

    #676416
    Powder_Rider
    498 Posts

    Yes better in all respects.

    Taylor:

    The prohibitive factor for me trying an AT system has been financial risk and cost-benefit, … Good boots, Phantoms, and touring pieces approaches $1500.

    It does not have to cost $1500 dollars. I outfitted both my wife and I each for around $500 to $700 dollars each.

    Scarpa F1s ($250 -350 from Sierra Trading Post)
    Dynafit toe pieces and adapters (purchased used about $150 for both)
    Bomber Sidewinder bindings (Paid Retail $300), Bomber Splitboard Bindings (use for $40) dollars), and score and modified Burton Race ($80 to $120 on eBay) to Burton Race Plate

    Well with in the price of retail for Softboots and soft Splitboard bindings.

    What it takes is time and diligently looking for bargains and closeouts, especially this time of year!

    Eventually I will add the Phantoms or the new 2014-2015 Spark R&D HB Splitboard Plate Bindings.

    The setup mentioned above is better than softboots for splitboarding, IMO; I now I tried the Driver Xs and soft boot bindings mounted Voile Plates. Noting I am bias, since I have been a HBer, since 1990.

    Alas the one thing the did not work for is the Voile Mtn Plate binding. I could not get this to work.

    #676417
    barrows
    1490 Posts

    Jason: Do you need room for an extra large inside ankle bone? I ask because, due to a bad ankle break back in HS, I have an extra large inside (medial) ankle bone, which is also sensitive to pressure. I deal with this in any boot, it hurts in both hard and soft boots, and to some extent I just have to deal with some discomfort on long days. What really helps alleviate this kind of problem is proper foot support, to keep the foot from pronating, if this is what you are dealing with, maybe you have already consulted a pediatrist, or at least a really good boot fitter and had some good custom insoles/orthotics made? The way my ankle is, I cannot do any riding without a really good, supportive, custom insole, no matter the type and model of boot.

    Snurfer: like I said, I have no problem with folks who choose to ride soft boots, what bothers me is less experienced folks spreading mis-information. The F3 is not even an available boot now, and it is a heavy, big boot. Comparing that to what we ride in is apples to olives…
    Like I said, cost is not really a concern for me, but for those whom it is, it is not necessary to spend huge amounts to test the waters, one just has to be a little diligent. One of my partners (now in TLT6s) started out by finding a pair of TLT3s or 4 s for $40 at gear shop used sale. He then spent another $100 getting a new liner custom molded and having some buckles replaced. The resulting boot weighed about the same as the TLT5 and rode very well for him (it was quite soft). He paired it with Volie Mountain Plates (cheap). Next season Will’s Spark plates will be available for those who are OK with Voile pucks, at a very affordable price. I have sold used Dynafit toe pieces for cheap on this site as well.
    Now putting together kit as above will not perform as well as using the latest and greatest: mostly because the board interface design of Phantoms is superior to anything else (hence the copying by Plum and Karakoram for next season) but it will still be adequate for one to experience many of the benefits of this approach and decide for themselves.

    If folks are not interested in trying it, that is fine with me, but I fail to see the reason in spreading mis-information about the potential performance advantages of the system, and I will continue to try and set the record straight everytime I see someone doing so.

    Taylor: Welcome to Colorado! I suspect when you start getting out with guys like HFT and MountainDog you may be re-considering Phantom/TLT5/6 set ups.

    #676418
    sbscosplit
    20 Posts

    Thanks for ALL the input! I went with a hb, the dynafit one. Just a touch wider than the tlt 5/6, tad heavier too. $350 new from a local shop.

    Now to find bindings?

    #676419
    nickstayner
    700 Posts

    Since we’re talking about facts (or FACTS if you’re Barrows), it would do us all some good to remember that there are plenty of soft-booters climbing and shredding bolder, steeper, longer and more impressive lines than we’re ever likely to do. When someone on this forum climbs and shreds the Hossack-MacGowan, or links the Grand, Middle, and South Tetons in a day and says they couldn’t have done it without their hardboot setup, that will be an assertion worth considering. Currently, “the choir” usually sounds like a bunch of geeks tinkering with model airplanes in their garages.

    Last summer, I had a bit of a pucker-fest on the steepest line I’ve climbed and ridden, on Castle Mountain in the Beartooths. I reached a particularly exposed spot about halfway up where I made a mental note to not to climb something like this again without a fully rigid crampon and a more supportable (i.e. “hard”) boot. This was the last route of the season for me, and I had the summer to save some $$ for a shiny new pair of TLTs and Phantoms, as well as to ruminate on this experience, but in the end didn’t pull the trigger. We’ve heard that “a poor workman always blames his tools”, and I couldn’t rule out that my experience on Castle had simply been triggered by feelings of exposure, fear of the unknown, etc… and really had nothing to do with my equipment. Certainly my setup was up to the task as I did finish and shred the line.

    So OP, enjoy your new toys, but if they don’t work for you, remember that you won’t be limiting yourself by “reverting” to a soft boot setup.

    #676420
    barrows
    1490 Posts

    Nick: I really do not understand your point? I did not hear anyone blaming their tools for failure (or success) on a given line?
    Indeed, I have climbed and ridden some fairly serious steeps using soft boots and crampons (and a solid board for that matter), of course it is possible to do so.
    I advocate for a hard boot system for all backcountry splitboarding, and I also use my hard boots on those rare inbounds days as well, because they ride better for me. Just like Mark Hartley, and Joey Vosburgh.
    And, I think you may be cherry picking your Teton snowboard descent history? I am sure you are aware that most of the serious lines in Tetons got their first snowboard descents by the likes of John Griber and Stephen Koch riding in hard boots.
    Here in Colorado, the most serious lines around have been descended by both hard and soft boot riders.
    But, clearly, the skill and experience of the rider is what matters, not the gear. Anyway, one could choose to drive across the country with a horse and buggy, or they could use an automobile, either will get one there!

    #676421
    sbscosplit
    20 Posts

    Yeah and I drive a diesel vw. Its front wheel drive with a lsd and gislaved studded snow tires. Is a four wheel drive better in the snow? Totally depends on the driver right! Im not driving off road of course, because that is what a splitboard is for. And part of my decision is just being curious because all my past riding is not a hb.

    If I don’t check it out I would always be curious about trying it. So here I go . . .

    #676422
    nickstayner
    700 Posts

    @barrows wrote:

    Nick: I really do not understand your point?

    Are you sure Barrows? You reiterate it nicely later on in your post:
    @Barrows wrote:

    But, clearly, the skill and experience of the rider is what matters, not the gear.

    I don’t think people consider that fact enough when making decisions decisions like these.

    …and haven’t we had enough Teton history discussions on here?

    #676423
    barrows
    1490 Posts

    “…and haven’t we had enough Teton history discussions on here?”

    :clap:

    Well, I guess I just assume that most folks are not going to equate better gear with being a more skilled/experienced rider, perhaps my bad. I sure do not look at it that way. Although I do admit that with my 30 years of experience I am much less likely to tolerate bad gear these days.
    I do think that better gear can result in one having more energy to deal with the riding situation, or a big day, rather than having to fuss about with gear. I guess to me the best gear just disappears into the background and is just not consideration when out riding.
    Online, and at home, then gear considerations come into play more… Like I work on boot mods mods at home, and carpet test, etc. In the field I concentrate on safety, line considerations, keeping fueled and comfortable, and being as efficient as possible, while having as much fun as possible.

    #676424
    Taylor
    794 Posts

    @barrows wrote:

    Taylor: Welcome to Colorado! I suspect when you start getting out with guys like HFT and MountainDog you may be re-considering Phantom/TLT5/6 set ups.

    Thanks. Big mountains and more consistent snow seasons will be a welcome change of pace. I look forward to feeling out an AT system. We’ll see if it takes.

    @sun_rocket

    #676425
    Jason4
    443 Posts

    @barrows wrote:

    Jason: Do you need room for an extra large inside ankle bone? I ask because, due to a bad ankle break back in HS, I have an extra large inside (medial) ankle bone, which is also sensitive to pressure. I deal with this in any boot, it hurts in both hard and soft boots, and to some extent I just have to deal with some discomfort on long days. What really helps alleviate this kind of problem is proper foot support, to keep the foot from pronating, if this is what you are dealing with, maybe you have already consulted a pediatrist, or at least a really good boot fitter and had some good custom insoles/orthotics made? The way my ankle is, I cannot do any riding without a really good, supportive, custom insole, no matter the type and model of boot.

    Hey Barrows,
    It’s not my ankle bones above the joint. From looking at a few detailed pictures of the anatomy of the foot I think it’s the navicular bone that is giving me all the problems. I’ll admit that it’s been a long time since I talked to a doctor about it and through trial and error I’ve found that blue superfeet are about the only thing that doesn’t leave me with cramped up feet. I’ll see if I can spend some time this summer trying to get my feet sorted out.

    I went to see a doctor when I sprained an ankle when I was 20 and they x-rayed my injured ankle/foot. I could hear the doc in the next room over while he was looking at the film and he called another doctor in to take a look too. They said something about never having seen anything like it and thought that I had broken my foot, not just sprained my ankle. Then they asked to x-ray my other foot to compare and it turned out they were both the same. I’m just cursed with dead flat feet that are the widest at the arch. With the feet that I have I should have taken up swimming.

    Even in my BD Primes I get blisters on the underside of my navicular after about 7 hours of touring and those are known to be made on a bathtub last.

    #676426
    barrows
    1490 Posts

    Jason: Yeah, that sounds like it could be a real problem. I was an apprentice bootfitter for a season in Crested Butte, and we made Peterson custom insoles (hard plastic, very good, but only if the guy making them is very skilled). I learned to make these insoles with the goal of getting the foot supported such that the ankle joint was in a neutral position (no pronation or supination). We were taught to find the neutral position by checking the Navicular: the goal was to have the Navicular equal on both the medial and lateral sides of the ankle. That is, the Navicular should not be protruding more on either side of the ankle. Typically, most people pronate to some degree (collapse to the medial side), and this makes the navicular bone protrude a little on the medial side (inside).
    I have pretty severe pronation on my left ankle, due to the ankle break, and the Navicular sticks out a lot when my foot is not properly supported-that little Navicular bone can be pretty painful.
    Some boots are certainly worse than others in this regard: but the real solution is to work with either a really good bootfitter or a podiatrist on orthotics or really good custom insoles. In my experience a really good custom insole can support the foot well enough that the navicular will not protrude so much, and pressure on it will be relieved, at least to some degree.

    #676427
    wasatch surf
    979 Posts

    here’s the deal. I didn’t read this entire thread as I feel like I didn’t need to. I already know the players and all of their moves.

    If you ride unmodded ill-fitted hardboots you really don’t have the experience or knowledge to make a comparison or judgement on hardboots. Unfortunately that is one downside they just don’t ride well out of the box. it’s like buying a dirt bike with slick, city tires and complaining that dirt bikes suck because they slide around on the trail.

    if you have never toured in a modern generation hardboot you have zero frame of reference for how amazing the touring actually is.

    every mountain worth climbing or descending has already been done for the most part, most likely by people in wool sweaters with leather boots and barrel skis. there’s not point in arguing that, however if everyone rippping in soft boots tried a good modded boot they would be like “oh damn, this is what efficient feels like. clip on crampons are rad, kicking steps with a hard toe is rad, having a thin boot that I can actually climb in is rad, having a boot that I can dry out in a few hours at camp is rad, having a boot shell that will last for years is rad, having 60degrees of walk motion is rad, etc…”

    I am a much better tourer in hardboots and really they have given me the confidence to take my mountaineering skills up a notch. recently I did a fall you die 3000ft semi-technical (steep booting up to 60degrees, multipitch climbing with board on my back ascent in my tlt5’s that I would have not even considered in softboots. props to the people that still do that shit in softboots, I just don’t understand why you would when a better option is available? oh and there is little to no difference on the down, if you mod your boot properly.

    and I don’t know why everyone has to play look at my dick when it comes to boots. grow up, plenty of good riders on both set ups. however a lot of dudes I know that crush it in soft boots would be absolutely insane in hardboots. for me they helped my skinning skills and speed, my confidence booting and climbing, and they are much lighter on the up. I would start skiing before I rode softboots again on a splitboard. i’ve never met anyone that made the switch and became a slower or less efficient skinner. it’s a no brainer.

    ps-people want to bitch about price that’s irrational look at how much karakoram charges. you can get brand new dynafit ones for less than $300 right now (on sale at backcountry.com hit me up if you want a pair 😉 ). great boot for splitting. that’s cheaper than some high end soft boots add $550 for the phantom interface and you are at $850 for new boots and interface. that’s less than a new k-ram set up and boots and not that much more than sparks.

    I doesn’t matter what you ride but really unless you have “real” experience on both (not I bought boots but never modded them or even fitted them, or I tried ski boots on once) you really don’t have a frame of reference to offer an opinion on this topic.

    end rant.

    #676428
    shasta
    143 Posts

    Truest quote in this pathetic, tired debate, “Currently, “the choir” usually sounds like a bunch of geeks tinkering with model airplanes in their garages.”

    I’m seriously considering going back to softboots based on the elitist attitudes of those who evangelize hardboots.

    Get a life, go ride.

    Andy

    #676429
    Snurfer
    1448 Posts

    sigh

    Shark Snowsurf Chuna
    Voile V-Tail 170 BC
    Voile One Ninety Five
    Spark R&D Arc

    #676430
    Zude
    367 Posts

    I’m definitely not sold on siderals so far, (really stiff leaning back). I have voile plate bindings which are really just a stop gap before Phantoms or Spark dynos. I also have yet to tour with dynafit toe pieces which are clearly big advantage on the up.

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